# Prosperity Comes To Intaki At Last **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [December 1, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792 "2017-12-01T19:39:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Saint\_Michaels\_Soul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saint_michaels_soul/32/325183_2.png) [@Saint\_Michaels\_Soul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saint_Michaels_Soul)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/121 "2017-12-13T16:38:14Z")
Says notorious Caldari Corporate Capitalist Shill. ---
**Author:** ![Yumi\_Hikare](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yumi_hikare/32/41285_2.png) [@Yumi\_Hikare](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yumi_Hikare)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 6:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/122 "2017-12-13T18:36:46Z")
This isn’t the mob rule that the Federation likes to call ‘freedom’, nor is it the absence of accountability. It is merely the freedom for each individual to make themselves and their goods marketable in the way they deem best, instead of someone else telling them how it ought to be done and why. ---
**Author:** ![Yumi\_Hikare](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yumi_hikare/32/41285_2.png) [@Yumi\_Hikare](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yumi_Hikare)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/123 "2017-12-13T18:42:32Z")
Given that the ILF couldn’t be bothered to undock even to watch, let alone participate in the attempted destruction of the citadel, this is a pointless gesture on your part. ---
**Author:** ![Kalaratiri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalaratiri/32/477189_2.png) [@Kalaratiri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalaratiri)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 6:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/124 "2017-12-13T18:53:02Z")
> [@Yumi\_Hikare](#): > > I wish to extend my thanks to Hard Knocks for answering our call and behaving honorably on the field of battle It’s always a pleasure to help our friends in the Serpentis, however indirectly. I’m sure my fellow Guardians will continue to watch this situation with interest. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/125 "2017-12-13T21:17:01Z")
> [@Yumi\_Hikare](#): > > This isn’t the mob rule that the Federation likes to call ‘freedom’, nor is it the absence of accountability. > > It is merely the freedom for each individual to make themselves and their goods marketable in the way they deem best, instead of someone else telling them how it ought to be done and why. Ma’am, the mob rule is called not the ‘freedom’, but ‘democracy’. The freedom is lack of rules, codes, morals, regulations, friendships, loyalties, honor and any other bonds, would it be said about a social phenomenon (or physical bonds if it is used as a scientific or philosophical concepts in theoretical physics). It is an utter state of disarray, and it is practically impossible to build a good business with freedom, as you can’t expect anyone to honor obligations, if they follow ideals of individual freedoms. And we already saw that behavior in politics from Gallente Federation: they sign a treaty, but when they don’t want to follow that - they simply violate it, like they didn’t sign anything. If you have freedom, everyone can do whatever they want. If you offer goods - they can simply attack you and sieze your goods by force instead of trying to trade with you. Because they can, and because they are _ **free** _ to do so. In comparison in the State we have probably the best open market that you can find in the whole cluster. Here you can sell and buy almost everything (except prohibited goods like drugs, slaves, some weapons, you can request list in customs). But we don’t follow ideals of freedom, we follow ideals of order. And our laws and regulations protect participants of the market so we can uphold standards healthy hypercapitalist society, that maybe somewhat ruthless, but only in terms of business relations and within borders of laws and regulations. The State is the best place of opportunities, where you can fully reveal your potential without fear of being just robbed of your goods by pirates and other freedom-loving scum. And if a Caldari merchant gives you a word, you can most certainly expect them to follow it, because honor and reputation in business means way more than just a quick monetary gain. ---
**Author:** ![Bataav](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bataav/32/502151_2.png) [@Bataav](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bataav)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 3:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/126 "2017-12-14T03:52:03Z")
I’ve enjoyed dipping in periodically, to catch up on this ongoing discussion, particularly the interesting views on morality in the market place. I wasn’t intending to get involved in the whole discussion regarding recent efforts to remove the Raituru because, other than idle curiosity on the part of two of our pilots who tested its defences shortly after it was anchored, the ILF has been content to ignore it. The structures just haven’t really been a topic of conversation within the ILF or IPI. I will however respond to some of the more pertinent points made, for balance and clarity. I think it’s important that I begin by reasserting a point I made in my very first response: > [@Bataav](#): > > The ILF and IPI are confident enough to welcome market competition. This has long been the case. As long ago as YC113, [I personally congratulated the efforts of some of our most vocal political opponents](https://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1497906), when they announced their short-lived “Centre of Commerce” in neighbouring Agoze. While some took the cynical view that they were trying to undermine the Intaki V-5 Trade Hub, we set aside politics and recognised it as a boost to local trade and industry across the Viriette constellation. It is with this same approach that we have negotiated positive relations with United Neopian Federation - the brains behind the nearby Harbor Complex in Eugales I also referenced in an earlier response. > [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > Combat Boosters are a legal commodity both to purchase Far be it for facts to get in the way of a good marketing campaign. The original announcement from 4FUNN above played to the controversial nature of the booster market, and made a point to reference their partnership with the Serpentis group. This, along with the provocative messaging in the Intaki system, works to generate a roguish image, that seems to work when attracting a particular capsuleer demographic. Regardless, the ILF and IPI have no interest in participating in the booster market and, regardless of legality or not, we believe the industry to have a detrimental effect on the local population. This moral view is informed by the personal experiences of our founder Saxon Hawke, who despite being lauded by 4FUNN earlier in this discussion, lost his own son to drug abuse. It also considers the wider Intaki people’s exposure to narcotics which made headlines during what is now referred to as the RISE incident. Our close relationship with the local population means were are intimately aware of the personal costs the narcotics industry can bring. It is unfortunate, though innevitable, that in addition to discussing the merits of market competition, I should also find it necessary to defend the reputation of the IPI alliance, the Intaki Liberation Front, and our Suresha. I have already highlighted the ILF and IPI’s willingness to work alongside others, when and where appropriate, always with the people of Intaki at the forefront of our minds, and in line with our political objectives when possible. There are plenty of examples where compromises have been made, some more comfortably than others. This is called diplomacy. When done effecively, it can result in independent 3rd parties choosing to speak out, challenging those who seek to challenge us, as some have done in this discussion, even including our vocal opponents such as @Andreus_Ixiris. It also means that on occasion some may choose to take direct action to defend the ILF and IPI’s interests on our behalf. This appears to be a point of frustration for 4FUNN, who belittle us for “hiding behind” others, who they also disparage, saying: > [@Yumi\_Hikare](#): > > I-RED, also boasted activity and membership far above what it does now. Ironic then that they should find it necessary to call for help themselves, to defend their structures in Intaki from those they find insignificant in comparison to past glories. > [@Yumi\_Hikare](#): > > the ILF couldn’t be bothered to undock even to watch I actually had a front row seat and sat, cloaked, to watch the fireworks from start to finish. Additionally, in what appears to be an eagerness to continue with an apparent obsession with the Suresha, that has persisted for over 18 months, the 4FUNN spokesperson contradicts herself. We are reassured that: > [@Yumi\_Hikare](#): > > No personal attacks have been made since the anchoring of the Engineering Complex She forgets that her original announcement included a disappointingly clumsy attempt to discredit the Suresha, with an accusation so ridiculous it barely warrants acknowledgement: > [@Yumi\_Hikare](#): > > It is perhaps the cluster’s least well-kept secret that the Suresha embezzles funds from the ‘Prosperity Initiative’ to buy herself capital ships and paid vacations to ‘retreats’ on the homeworld, all at the expense of the very people she claims to fight for! Quite simply, nonsense. Of course these accusations against us, and my innevitable response is all part of the cut and thrust of animosity between two groups with opposing philosophies and a little history. Just as I expect 4FUNN to disregard my responses, so most of the noise they generate is irrelevent to us. I would very much prefer to focus on local trade and industry, and on a free market where competition is welcome. I have always enjoyed the vigourous debates on Intaki politics and our place in New Eden, and look forward to more of the same. But instead it is important that I respond and challenge the narrative being peddled by 4FUNN. I make reference to specific points above because the context behind 4FUNN’s motivation matters. Driven by their own amusement, by attempting to provoke a reaction from the ILF, they simply do not share the depth of commitment to the people of Intaki, and the local economy that we do. This matters because, just as with all of those who have come before them, 4FUNN’s attention will wander. Innevitably, as they seek gratification elsewhere, their investments in Intaki will decline to nothing. Of course, I’m more than willing to reconvene in another decade, so that they can prove me wrong. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Revenent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/john_revenent/32/414772_2.png) [@John\_Revenent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/John_Revenent)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 4:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/127 "2017-12-14T04:02:47Z")
Well said. ---
**Author:** ![Andreus\_Ixiris](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/andreus_ixiris/32/498273_2.png) [@Andreus\_Ixiris](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Andreus_Ixiris)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/128 "2017-12-14T21:10:41Z")
Virtue signalling isn’t a real thing either. Keep your information-age buzzwords to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Ria\_Nieyli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ria_nieyli/32/447728_2.png) [@Ria\_Nieyli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ria_Nieyli)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/129 "2017-12-14T21:29:42Z")
> [@Andreus\_Ixiris](#): > > Virtue signalling isn’t a real thing either. Keep your information-age buzzwords to yourself. Oh, but it is. It has been a thing before the term virtue signalling came into existence, even. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/131 "2017-12-14T23:32:45Z")
People who accuse others of virtue signalling are accusing others of saying they’re better than them in an attempt to say that they’re better than said virtue signallar. ---
**Author:** ![Ria\_Nieyli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ria_nieyli/32/447728_2.png) [@Ria\_Nieyli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ria_Nieyli)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 11:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/132 "2017-12-14T23:35:06Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > People who accuse others of virtue signalling are accusing others of saying they’re better than them in an attempt to say that they’re better then said virtue signallar. Mo. Virtue signalling is a demagogic tool, used to bind members of alternative cultures in society together. ---
**Author:** ![Andreus\_Ixiris](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/andreus_ixiris/32/498273_2.png) [@Andreus\_Ixiris](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Andreus_Ixiris)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 11:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/133 "2017-12-14T23:41:28Z")
Whenever anyone accuses someone else of “virtue signalling,” it always shows infinitely more about them than it does about the accused - namely, that they can’t possibly imagine that someone might do something nice or responsible unless it’s self-serving or they have an ulterior motive. ---
**Author:** ![Ria\_Nieyli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ria_nieyli/32/447728_2.png) [@Ria\_Nieyli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ria_Nieyli)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/134 "2017-12-14T23:45:35Z")
And that loses its meaning when you consider that it’s used to marginalise other groups and other them so whatever bad thing you’re doing to them seems okay. Such as instilling non-negotiable democracy over sovereign colonies that never asked for it, but you’d be damned if you let those Caldari decide what they want for themselves, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 11:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/135 "2017-12-14T23:52:47Z")
> [@Ria\_Nieyli](#): > > And that loses its meaning when you consider that it’s used to marginalise other groups and other them so whatever bad thing you’re doing to them seems okay The virtue signalling label is used to marginalize the disenfranchised and disempowered. If the Federation is using the virtue signalling label against the Caldari and the Caldari are disenfranchised and disempowered, then that proves Mr Ixiris’s point. Don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Ria\_Nieyli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ria_nieyli/32/447728_2.png) [@Ria\_Nieyli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ria_Nieyli)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 11:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/136 "2017-12-14T23:55:59Z")
Are the Caldari disempowered though? I mean, they pretty much upped and left when they found out that the democratic system was broken and didn’t actually afford them some of the rights that they wanted. Then they formed their own government which brings us to today. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 12:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/137 "2017-12-15T00:01:22Z")
So I’m clearly not seeing what you’re getting at. Are the Caldari marginalized or not. If they’re not disempowered then they’re not marginalized, right? Yet you’re saying that they’re marginalized. I’m not saying the Federation is right in how they’ve treated the Caldari, but what is it? Are the Caldari marginalized or not? If so, is the Federation accusing the Caldari of virtue signalling? ---
**Author:** ![Ria\_Nieyli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ria_nieyli/32/447728_2.png) [@Ria\_Nieyli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ria_Nieyli)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 12:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/138 "2017-12-15T00:07:29Z")
I think we’re using different meanings of the word here. Being marginalised means that your importance is downplayed, as in “these people’s opinions don’t matter because they’re X, unlike us who are Y.” Then those people take up arms and impose direct democracy and you suddenly find out that alienating a sizeable portion of the population in your domain might not have been the best choice. ---
**Author:** ![Andreus\_Ixiris](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/andreus_ixiris/32/498273_2.png) [@Andreus\_Ixiris](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Andreus_Ixiris)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 12:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/139 "2017-12-15T00:08:01Z")
If you have to bring up historical geopolitics to justify use of a term that was provably and utterly debunked before those historical geopoltiics even occured, you’re on the losing side of the argument. Take your L and sit down. ---
**Author:** ![Ria\_Nieyli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ria_nieyli/32/447728_2.png) [@Ria\_Nieyli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ria_Nieyli)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 12:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/140 "2017-12-15T00:14:28Z")
Oh, I’m just using it as an example that we all know of, in some capacity or other. The fact of the matter is that the practice has existing long before the term was coined, and will continue to exist after it was debunked. But, if you’re going to ignore the actual meaning of the words in favour of pointing out and latching to a minor detail, you’re on the wrong side of the arguement. Take your L and sit down. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2017, 12:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792/141 "2017-12-15T00:32:43Z")
> [@Ria\_Nieyli](#): > > I think we’re using different meanings of the word here. Being marginalised means that your importance is downplayed, as in “these people’s opinions don’t matter because they’re X, unlike us who are Y.” Which removes power as only people with power in a society have opinions that others in that society think matter. Not all opinions are equal and can be rejected out of hand for failing to meet the most basic criteria. Some groups that continually parade bad opinions rejected for good reasons, conflate it with marginalization and call it “virtue signalling.” That you claim the Caldari are marginalized under the “virtual signalling” argument robs the Caldari of some of their legitimacy. I’d wish you’d stop it. Thank you. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792.md?page=6) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/prosperity-comes-to-intaki-at-last/42792.md?page=8)