# Proving of Kybernauts for Glorification in the Flow Unfolds **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** feedback, official, devblog\ **Created:** [June 29, 2020, 1:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073 "2020-06-29T13:03:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dantelion_shinoni/32/383315_2.png) [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dantelion_Shinoni)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 3:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/727 "2020-07-07T15:23:50Z")
> [@bluelysian](#): > > now im sory… i had just wrote this in bit rush conditions… but this ones detailed version is in my presentation… which i will nicely pack it with better english and present CCPs regards before i leave this forum thread I have to admit, the idea is not bad. However, it’s funny that **now** you are ok with Instances 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 where is that worry about 3rd parties and escalations now??? When it’s your thing it’s fine but when it’s CCP it’s a problem? That’s _not_ coherent. Also the problem is that you are trying to solve a different problem than CCP. Through the Abyss CCP tries to add avenues for people who are short on time and want quick rewarding play sessions. What is introduced now is the long awaited PvP form of that. What you are trying to solve with this is tournaments and social interactions around PvP, what CCP tries to solve is the absence of short PvP sessions activities. To better explain this, what is the reward of the people engaging in _your_ Arenas? How does the Corporation grows by hosting those matches? Why would they host those matches? And I know your answer already: PvP for PvP’s sake. And that’s not enough, I’m sorry. You are asking CCP to put money into making glorified Training grounds when they could instead put money into making a universal, on-demand, available 24/24 to **all** players PvP option that everyone will be able to use without anchoring a Citadel. Not even mentionning that your idea doesn’t solve the open-world PvP problem at all. I give it a 6/10, needs a higher reason than just doing it for its own sake. Otherwise, it’s an interesting idea as a novelty for a corp. ---
**Author:** ![bluelysian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bluelysian/32/423769_2.png) [@bluelysian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/bluelysian)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/728 "2020-07-07T15:28:05Z")
> [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](#): > > However, it’s funny that **now** you are ok with Instances 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 where is that worry about 3rd parties and escalations now??? no and i did mentioned it …I am not ok with instanced PVP in a way that presented here , I never told that im up against competetive PVP… i do run torunament style fights … Please DO NOT detorate. I had already accepted this release is coming and im coming with sugestions and damage control. Are you trying to come with mutual grounds here or you have another agenda ? And you have already harrassed me out of topic subjects… your attitudes are out of measurement … what is you agenda here? > [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](#): > > I just want you to realize you were wrong on pretty much everything. > [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](#): > > But again, you are trying to do damage control for a “problem” that exists only for **you** lol Very omnipotent… assuming its only me who is sharing these ideas … majority agree on these … and also > [@Shushero](#): > > Almost sounds like you are assigning your version of meaning, universial value. In a game. Lets hope Im wrong. agree ---
**Author:** ![Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dantelion_shinoni/32/383315_2.png) [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dantelion_Shinoni)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 3:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/729 "2020-07-07T15:29:51Z")
I just want you to realize you were wrong on pretty much everything. Your idea is not bad though. But again, you are trying to do damage control for a “problem” that exists only for **you** lol ---
**Author:** ![bluelysian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bluelysian/32/423769_2.png) [@bluelysian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/bluelysian)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/730 "2020-07-07T15:31:03Z")
NO … and so many times i had reasoned and backed up my ideas here … unlike you just spilling some omnipotent sentences … claiming self proven … so please … Start learn proper debate methods. what kind of ENTITLED mindset … give you delusion that., im the only one here up against instanced PVP in given conditions and standing up for SANDBOX PVP…??? … so far… majority here against it… … bunch of CSM and you trying to push the idea through our throats and we are reasoning ---
**Author:** ![Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dantelion_shinoni/32/383315_2.png) [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dantelion_Shinoni)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 3:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/731 "2020-07-07T15:34:05Z")
You call that reasoning, I call that ranting. It would be a much more productive use of your time to try to come up with a good design for those Arenas, what would make them more than simple Training grounds, how they would fit in the EVE ecosystem, what would make them unique? Oh and again, now I don’t see you talk about the “beautiful tradition” and all those things, where is the “beautiful tradition” you were talking about in anchored Arenas? ---
**Author:** ![Lunatic\_Lover](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lunatic_lover/32/376215_2.png) [@Lunatic\_Lover](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lunatic_Lover)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 3:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/732 "2020-07-07T15:39:19Z")
> [@MB\_ThePhotographer](#): > > I just hope to keep the avg age at 40 and above. Does this mean that people were in their 20s when EVE were starting, or veterans of EVE are now in their 60s? ---
**Author:** ![Lothar\_Mandrake](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lothar_mandrake/32/414266_2.png) [@Lothar\_Mandrake](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lothar_Mandrake)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 3:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/733 "2020-07-07T15:40:44Z")
@bluelysian - I believe @Dantelion_Shinoni was just offering constructive criticism in his first post. It did not appear to be an attack. There are issues in your idea with sustainability. If you want to sell the idea, you will need to relax and listen to criticism. It might make your proposal more popular and help you improve it. ---
**Author:** ![Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dantelion_shinoni/32/383315_2.png) [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dantelion_Shinoni)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 3:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/735 "2020-07-07T15:45:49Z")
Reasoning would imply Listening btw. ---
**Author:** ![Alterus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alterus/32/213825_2.png) [@Alterus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alterus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 3:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/736 "2020-07-07T15:49:56Z")
> [@Dravick\_Afterthought](#): > > I disagree - how can a decision about “ _I certainly didn’t ask for my preferred gameplay to be removed ten years ago, and neither did any other can flipper._ ” be satisfied, in your terms, without a vote of all the players ? You are not understanding the line of reasoning here. Brisc made an assertion, “Players wanted nerfs to highsec aggression”. I challenged him to provide evidence to support it. That’s all. This issue of “a vote of all the players” is something you imagine I implied. > [@Dravick\_Afterthought](#): > > Exactly as you are making unfounded assertions about _what highsec players wanted_ - with your implication that ‘can-flipping’ should have be retained because it’s what you and a few like-minded players wanted. No. I am arguing that highsec criminal gameplay is essential to the social ecosystem of EVE and overall player retention and that there is a correlation between lower player counts and highsec aggression nerfs. I also point out that Brisc makes claims about player retention and what players want without the support of evidence. The implications are coming from you, not me. ---
**Author:** ![Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dantelion_shinoni/32/383315_2.png) [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dantelion_Shinoni)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 3:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/738 "2020-07-07T15:54:57Z")
> [@bluelysian](#): > > its perfectly coherent … because i do rely on my sugestion in a name of supporting player Have you considered that player dynamics exist in the Abyss too? Have you considered that CCP might _also_ be doing this in the name of supporting players? ---
**Author:** ![Lothar\_Mandrake](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lothar_mandrake/32/414266_2.png) [@Lothar\_Mandrake](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lothar_Mandrake)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 3:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/739 "2020-07-07T15:57:02Z")
@bluelysian - As a developer (not in EVE, yet) 🙂 everything is constructive criticism. Everyone expresses ideas in their own way. Listen to all of it without becoming emotionally involved and use what you can to improve your project. P.S. You need your own thread, we are way off-topic now. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/742 "2020-07-07T16:09:08Z")
> [@Alterus](#): > > You are not understanding the line of reasoning here. Brisc made an assertion, “Players wanted nerfs to highsec aggression”. I challenged him to provide evidence to support it. That’s all. This issue of “a vote of all the players” is something you imagine I implied. I didn’t want to do have to do your research for you, but here’s just a smattering of evidence in regards to war decs alone. > **[Bitter Vet - High Sec War Decs are Broken. Lets Talk :) - Crime &...](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/topic/419872/)** > > EVE allows you to discover, explore and dominate an amazing science fiction universe while you fight, trade, form corporations and alliances with other players. [http://nevillesmit.com/blog/2015/11/11/rethinking-wardecs](http://nevillesmit.com/blog/2015/11/11/rethinking-wardecs) > **[Should the War Dec System Simply be Removed?](http://evelostfound.blogspot.com/2016/01/should-war-dec-system-simply-be-removed.html)** > > eve online exploration exploring pvp isk living in low sec and null market trading hauling solo small gang pvp > [@Left because of wardec](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/left-because-of-wardec/61584/80): > > It is not because I don’t like it. This is because I want this game to continue existing. Things I showed are concerned malfunctions in the game. If necessary actions will not be done EVE Online will die. 2019 year will be critical for CCP. There are only two ways after this: or they go it through and then will be existing for long, or they dissapear. They know it and they try to be prepared for it. But if right things will not be implemented they become a part of history. [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/5/a/a/5aa2d634b5b4f0a88a4c84cdcb010437f841f303.jpeg "EVE Online: My Thoughts on Wardec Mechanics - While running and salvaging missions") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9aWdIf1-nI) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1y747f/how\_are\_wardec\_corps\_not\_considered\_griefing/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1y747f/how_are_wardec_corps_not_considered_griefing/) > [@Griefing?](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/griefing/128482): > > Hello, I am a newer player and I have a question. Within a couple weeks of starting this game I joined a corporation. Me, like many other who joined this corp were rookies. Low skill point, first time guys. Shortly after, we began receiveing the usual war decs a rookie corp gets, and they were manageable at first. The corp may have made a mistake by setting a structure down too early, causeing unwanted attention by others. The new war dec mechanics hadn’t been implemented yet, so just removing i… > **[EVE Evolved: Wars are literally ruining EVE Online | Massively Overpowered](https://massivelyop.com/2018/10/14/eve-evolved-wars-are-literally-ruining-eve-online/)** > **[Jin'talks—What's Wrong With Wardecs? - INN](https://imperium.news/jintalks-whats-wrong-with-wardecs/)** > > If you would like to listen to this article instead of reading it, please click this link.… > [@Alterus](#): > > I also point out that Brisc makes claims about player retention and what players want without the support of evidence. The implications are coming from you, not me. I am not making claims - I am telling you facts, confirmed by the Devs, regarding player retention rates. Steve said the same thing. Steve is the longest serving CSM member in history, so he’s been in the room for all these discussions. If you don’t believe me, then believe him. There is no rational reason why CCP would have made these changes to highsec if they believed that it was reducing the number of players in the game. At least recently, if not before, when they’ve made major changes that have resulted in large numbers of players quitting, they’ve reversed those changes, as we saw with Blackout. I’m sorry, but you are letting your personal playstyle and idea of fun cloud an objective view as to what most players want. You are not in the majority when it comes to highsec PvP. ---
**Author:** ![Lothar\_Mandrake](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lothar_mandrake/32/414266_2.png) [@Lothar\_Mandrake](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lothar_Mandrake)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 4:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/743 "2020-07-07T16:13:40Z")
and that’s why we voted @Brisc_Rubal for CSM. 🙂 Whether you agree with him or not, he always comes out guns blazing with facts he can prove. ---
**Author:** ![Alterus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alterus/32/213825_2.png) [@Alterus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alterus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/745 "2020-07-07T16:37:11Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > What could have possibly happened at the same time as these changes were made that helped impact PCU? Could it possibly have been all of the changes to mining and ratting that reduced the numbers of people with multiple accounts on at the same time mining and ratting? And all of the players with multiple rorq and super accounts that were no longer profitable so they stopped being subbed and logged in? > > You are not looking at the whole game while you’re trying to make your argument. Again, read carefully before responding: > [@Alterus](#): > > Assuming a stable or increasing rate of new players joining the game, and an increasing rate of retention, the average PCU _must_ increase eventually. We can see this happen in the PCU data for the early years of the game. If it doesn’t, then either **there is some confounding variable (like more players quitting, alt accounts unsubbing)** affecting the PCU average, or the hypothesis that the changes are dramatically improving retention is false. > > The correlation still runs in favor of my argument: a safer highsec is associated with lower player counts. **Does that mean there is a causative relationship? Not necessarily. Something else may have caused the decline.** Let me say it once more: Either wardecs and the nerfs to them significantly affected retention, or they did not. The narrative around the old wardec mechanics coming from yourself and CCP was that highsec wars amounted to some kind of emergency, that “immediately removing war decs as a mechanic” would be an appropriate response to that emergency. Nowhere was any evidence presented to support that claim (and I have already explained why the ‘corp activity’ metric is nonsense). Not once has CCP said anything to the effect of "Wardecs cause x% of new players to quit the game’. In fact, when retention increased in early 2020, CCP credited it to the (actually very good) improvements to the launcher and character creation UI, the “first five minutes”. No mention of wardecs. Overall, your pattern in this discussion has been to ignore anything inconvenient to your position, while tossing out random bits of evidence that do not say what you claim they do and blatantly misrepresenting what I and others have written. There are also comments like this: > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Oh no Steve! You just revealed yourself as a former CSM member! Be prepared for a psychological evaluation in broken English! YOU’RE DOOMED. This is simple, arrogant nastiness. ---
**Author:** ![Kynami\_Vaille](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kynami_vaille/32/229160_2.png) [@Kynami\_Vaille](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kynami_Vaille)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 4:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/746 "2020-07-07T16:39:01Z")
Cool it on complaining about posts and saying you are outright flagging them. That is just as disruptive to the overall conversation if not more so. More on topic this should be at least somewhat interesting because in a small 2v2 format EWAR is very stupidly strong when correctly applied. And if somebody is running something ridiculously blingy they might run into a pair of bricks who’s attack is the 15 minute clock insuring that blinged ship and pod go poof. ---
**Author:** ![bluelysian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bluelysian/32/423769_2.png) [@bluelysian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/bluelysian)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 4:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/748 "2020-07-07T16:47:02Z")
Prior posts contains several chain personal harrasment ok . Me defending myself in one message disruptive. thank you for feedback. I appreciated and i removed. thanks for your personal opinions we see it ---
**Author:** ![Alterus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alterus/32/213825_2.png) [@Alterus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alterus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 5:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/749 "2020-07-07T17:28:57Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I am not making claims - I am telling you facts, confirmed by the Devs, regarding player retention rates. These are not facts, they are anecdotes from forums and blogs. I could link posts from wardeccers and minerbumping that say the opposite, but I don’t. Why? Because opinions are not facts. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Steve said the same thing. Steve is the longest serving CSM member in history, so he’s been in the room for all these discussions. If you don’t believe me, then believe him. Saying “I was there and CCP showed us such and so” is also not evidence. This is just another appeal to authority. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > There is no rational reason why CCP would have made these changes to highsec if they believed that it was reducing the number of players in the game. This is true. I agree that CCP believes that the nerfs to highsec aggression are in their best interest. However, I don’t agree with their assessment. The main enemy of player retention is boredom, not ‘griefing’. Players who quit out of boredom do not make forum posts or write blogs. They don’t fill out the little questionnaire on the account management page. They just leave and never come back. I argue that selling EVE to new players on the strength of its PVE is a mistake and the removal of low entry-barrier PVP in highsec means that new players have no route to get into PVP, aside from dropping some cash on PLEX and skill injectors (or grinding ISK) to compete with established players in low and null. I also argue that the introduction of instanced PVP will not be effective because it reduces social interaction as compared to world PVP and doesn’t address the entry barrier problem. Finally, I argue that there is no hard evidence that highsec PVP damaged player retention, nor that nerfs to highsec PVP improved it. You have addressed none of these arguments in a substantive way, choosing instead to argue like a corporate lobbyist, repeating the same talking points over and over. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/750 "2020-07-07T17:31:57Z")
> [@Alterus](#): > > Let me say it once more: Either wardecs and the nerfs to them significantly affected retention, or they did not. There is no question that they affected retention positively. We don’t have enough information from the devs to know whether it was “significant.” But it’s not really disputable that they had an impact. > [@Alterus](#): > > Nowhere was any evidence presented to support that claim (and I have already explained why the ‘corp activity’ metric is nonsense). It was presented in private to the CSM. I saw it. Steve saw it. We both drew the same conclusions. > [@Alterus](#): > > Not once has CCP said anything to the effect of "Wardecs cause x% of new players to quit the game’. In fact, when retention increased in early 2020, CCP credited it to the (actually very good) improvements to the launcher and character creation UI, the “first five minutes”. No mention of wardecs. Next time I have Goodfella on the show, I’ll ask him directly if the war dec mechanics had a positive impact, so he can say yes and you can stop demanding more proof that I’m not legally allowed to give you. > [@Alterus](#): > > This is simple, arrogant nastiness. Stop whining. You guys can dish it out, but you can’t take it. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 5:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/751 "2020-07-07T17:33:06Z")
> [@Alterus](#): > > These are not facts, they are anecdotes from forums and blogs. I could link posts from wardeccers and minerbumping that say the opposite, but I don’t. Why? Because opinions are not facts. You literally asked me to provide you evidence that players were complaining about this. I did. This is moving to goal posts. I’m done here. ---
**Author:** ![Dravick\_Afterthought](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dravick_afterthought/32/282017_2.png) [@Dravick\_Afterthought](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dravick_Afterthought)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 6:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/752 "2020-07-07T18:30:15Z")
> [@Alterus](#): > > No. I am arguing that highsec criminal gameplay is essential to the social ecosystem of EVE and overall player retention and that there is a correlation between lower player counts and highsec aggression nerfs. The curious thing is that I totally agree with this statement. We are only disagreeing about how CCP should make decisions as to how Eve evolves - if not by a vote, how would _you_ suggest CCP direct themselves as to the best course of evolution ? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073.md?page=34) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073.md?page=36)