# Proving of Kybernauts for Glorification in the Flow Unfolds **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** feedback, official, devblog\ **Created:** [June 29, 2020, 1:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073 "2020-06-29T13:03:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Little\_Fawn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/little_fawn/32/323065_2.png) [@Little\_Fawn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Little_Fawn)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 6:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/753 "2020-07-07T18:51:42Z")
> [@Dravick\_Afterthought](#): > > if not by a vote, how would _you_ suggest CCP direct themselves as to the best course of evolution I am not the person you are addressing, but as a games industry veteran, I can tell you that there is absolutely no reason to believe that democracy makes for good games, and quite a bit of evidence to the contrary. It is very important for game designers to listen to players, but then interpret what they are saying carefully to make design decisions. A good example of this is “balance”. Players call loudly and repeatedly for balance, but good game design uses [Perfect Imbalance](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w), where balance is rotated to challenge players to develop the metagame. Back when WoW was at its peak (and long before the Perfect Imbalance video) WoW’s chief designer told me that they used this principle, and that they interpreted quite a lot of crying on the forums about balance changes as a _good sign_. It meant players were being _challenged_. An example of where this has gone _wrong_ on MMOs is when players have complained that it takes a long time to level alts, and the game responds by making the levelling process easier and more boring, instead of making it more challenging and interesting so that people enjoy doing it. That’s a move that would appear to be in direct opposition to democratic wishes. I have spent a lot of time trying to interpret the dynamics of Eve’s design and its community. From my limited and biased perspective, it seems to me that a lot of players are conflating in-game goals with game design goals. This is common across MMOs. A very simple example: The game encourages you to make ISK. Players will lobby and vote for changes that get them more ISK. There are many varieties of this knot. It is a huge mistake to listen. One thing that makes Eve greater than other MMOs is that it has a vociferous, articulate community who are metagaming on many levels. The game encourages this. I think it’s marvellous. But very dangerous when mixed with “democratic game design”. tl;dr Game design is hard. Experienced professional game designers do it better than player hiveminds. Long live Eve. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Azariah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_azariah/32/512626_2.png) [@Mike\_Azariah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Azariah)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 7:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/754 "2020-07-07T19:19:18Z")
I am 60, yes. Still play. 11 years and counting so I might be considered late to the game. m ---
**Author:** ![Lunatic\_Lover](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lunatic_lover/32/376215_2.png) [@Lunatic\_Lover](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lunatic_Lover)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/755 "2020-07-07T19:56:53Z")
Interesting to know, thanks for confirmation of such cases. Though i’m already a bit used to a forums with very mature users, thanks to one dedicated to a pretty old/abandoned 3d software, and perhaps musician/synth circles as well. ---
**Author:** ![Lothar\_Mandrake](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lothar_mandrake/32/414266_2.png) [@Lothar\_Mandrake](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lothar_Mandrake)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 8:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/756 "2020-07-07T20:21:10Z")
> [@Alterus](#): > > > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > > > I am not making claims - I am telling you facts, confirmed by the Devs, regarding player retention rates. > > These are not facts, they are anecdotes from forums and blogs. I could link posts from wardeccers and minerbumping that say the opposite, but I don’t. Why? Because opinions are not facts. Just as a matter of fact, I have lost 11 friends in 4 years to wardec griefing in game and not one to boredom. Personally I am just along for the ride in EVE. I love to watch as the stories unfold. CCP gets my paid subscription yearly as a thank you for letting me be a part of this incredible game. ---
**Author:** ![bluelysian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bluelysian/32/423769_2.png) [@bluelysian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/bluelysian)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 10:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/757 "2020-07-07T22:37:48Z")
> [@Little\_Fawn](#): > > Doing what is popular does not lead to good game design. You only have to look at the development of other MMOs to see this. Doing _anything_ that is popular in the short term can be very harmful to the long term. > [@Little\_Fawn](#): > > An example of where this has gone _wrong_ on MMOs is when players have complained that it takes a long time to level alts, and the game responds by making the levelling process easier and more boring, instead of making it more challenging and interesting so that people enjoy doing it. That’s a move that would appear to be in direct opposition to democratic wishes. I did lost lots of friends too… They lost the habitat they thrive… then they left… They were all fighters… some of the best solo skirmish pilots… theory crafters. AT pilots. … All happened after some spesific releases were behalf of the farmers … i lost them one after another … over years this games balance tipped over behalf of farmers long time ago… CCP aware about the issue… but still not aware about how they are feeding it … ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 11:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/758 "2020-07-07T23:56:31Z")
Why does the title of this thread remind me of “Cultural Learnings of (redacted) for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of (redacted)”. Is Borat now working in Iceland ? ![ThriftyYellowChick-max-1mb](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/6/b/6b7af903cdf3346789a77af0503082c1fdfc2d31.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Alterus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alterus/32/213825_2.png) [@Alterus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alterus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 12:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/759 "2020-07-08T00:58:51Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Next time I have Goodfella on the show, I’ll ask him directly if the war dec mechanics had a positive impact, so he can say yes and you can stop demanding more proof that I’m not legally allowed to give you. Ask him if the data on wardecs conclusively show that they caused players to quit the game and how many did so. Whether I’m right or wrong, I eagerly await the answer. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > You literally asked me to provide you evidence that players were complaining about this. I did. This is moving to goal posts. > > I’m done here. I asked you to provide evidence that players were **quitting because of wardecs.** Like I said, I eagerly await Goodfella’s reveal of how many players did so. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 1:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/760 "2020-07-08T01:11:10Z")
It was a joke. The last I knew, the avg age of the player base was 40. Also a lot more females play the game than most others. But I have lost track of that post/info. I just wanted to point out that EVE is, or a least was a niche game. ---
**Author:** ![Alterus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alterus/32/213825_2.png) [@Alterus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alterus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 1:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/761 "2020-07-08T01:13:12Z")
> [@Dravick\_Afterthought](#): > > The curious thing is that I totally agree with this statement. We are only disagreeing about how CCP should make decisions as to how Eve evolves - if not by a vote, how would _you_ suggest CCP direct themselves as to the best course of evolution ? Ideally, they should be considering what types of gameplay and social structures (corps, alliances) maximize unscripted social interactions between players, what causes them to get invested in what they’re doing, fight, ally with each other, etc. Then they should think about how to direct new players into those types of interactive gameplay and corps. I have some ideas as to what this gameplay might look like, but the most important thing is for CCP to ask the right questions. ---
**Author:** ![Alterus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alterus/32/213825_2.png) [@Alterus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alterus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 1:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/762 "2020-07-08T01:16:49Z")
> [@Lothar\_Mandrake](#): > > Just as a matter of fact, I have lost 11 friends in 4 years to wardec griefing in game and not one to boredom. Bored players quit silently. They don’t announce they’re leaving to their corpmates or make a thread in the forums or on Reddit, they just disappear. Whether they become bored out of frustration with learning the game or feeling directionless or some other reason, I’m willing to bet that they make up a majority of people who quit. ---
**Author:** ![Archer\_en\_Tilavine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/archer_en_tilavine/32/461718_2.png) [@Archer\_en\_Tilavine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Archer_en_Tilavine)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 1:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/763 "2020-07-08T01:25:58Z")
> [@MB\_ThePhotographer](#): > > The last I knew, the avg age of the player base was 40. Ew. 😐 > [@ISD Appreciation - On Behalf of the Community, Thank You!](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/isd-appreciation-on-behalf-of-the-community-thank-you/240222/241): > > Just cause I’m 60 Ew gross. 🤢 > [@Mike\_Azariah](#): > > I am 60, yes. Okay I’m done eating. 🤮 Scandalous! Outrageous! We’ve got an Agegate conspiracy going on over here! I can’t be caught dead playing pew-pew with all you old farts! The only thing that could top this is if it was revealed that @Mike_Azariah’s secretly manifested his evil alter ego in the form of @Nicolai_Serkanner… 👼😈 ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/2/7/2738db4525cfdecee41a1653e300cd759c88e942.jpeg) # #trollpost ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Azariah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_azariah/32/512626_2.png) [@Mike\_Azariah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Azariah)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 1:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/764 "2020-07-08T01:30:06Z")
Nope, I mainly play on my main unless doing research for NPE for example or making lesson vids so I am not too outskilled for starting missions. It would be just too much work for me to try to keep an alternate character active in the forums. I am lazy that way so this is whatcha got. m ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 1:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/765 "2020-07-08T01:33:05Z")
BTW, I’m 60 also. 😜 ---
**Author:** ![Archer\_en\_Tilavine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/archer_en_tilavine/32/461718_2.png) [@Archer\_en\_Tilavine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Archer_en_Tilavine)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 1:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/766 "2020-07-08T01:34:28Z")
@MB_ThePhotographer has Alzheimer’s. He forgot that I posted it 8 minutes ago. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/2/5/2570839db38d0fbb1dda078b515bbe7ffc8c5aae.png) Why am I even talking to you ugh ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 1:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/767 "2020-07-08T01:38:31Z")
Sorry, I was busy apologizing to a Dev. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dantelion_shinoni/32/383315_2.png) [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dantelion_Shinoni)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 8:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/768 "2020-07-08T08:07:04Z")
> [@Alterus](#): > > Ideally, they should be considering what types of gameplay and social structures (corps, alliances) maximize unscripted social interactions between players, what causes them to get invested in what they’re doing, fight, ally with each other, etc. Then they should think about how to direct new players into those types of interactive gameplay and corps. You can understand something as basic as that, because newsflash CCP and the players have realized that we have to do that for easily more than 4 years now, _you have not come up with anything new here_. But for some reasons you are incapable of understanding something as basic as the toxic role High-Sec wardecs had in the community. I guess you are some kind of robot, as long as you are not provided with some specific numbers you are incapable of grasping anything. Even a child would grasp the level of nuance we are talking about here. > [@Alterus](#): > > I have some ideas as to what this gameplay might look like, but the most important thing is for CCP to ask the right questions. You are not even able to grasp the **answers** CCP have come up with, you think they just decided to nerf Wardecs because they felt like it? You refuse to accept the evidences and reasoning people on the CSM _and who talked to the devs_ are telling you and somehow _you_ have an idea of what kind of gameplay changes are needed by the game… Allow me to doubt the usefulness of your ideas. You seem exactly like bluelysian, trying to solve a problem that is only _yours_, not the game’s. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 8:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/769 "2020-07-08T08:34:35Z")
🔴 > [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](#): > > But for some reasons you are incapable of understanding something as basic as the toxic role High-Sec wardecs had in the community. Toxicity is relative. Now we have useless humongous, war dec immune alliances and null sec block feeder corps, which I personally find a lot more toxic than some small corps having had trouble in the past. These new things exist to funnel people into grinders without putting much effort into them. Instead of helping your feeder corp in a war to make them stay and feel relevant, and to show them that they matter for the main alliance, CCP just removed wars from these corps because no-one could be bothered with socializing and working with the noobs they want for their tax farms. And in the process it was made much harder to keep humongous groups like TEST, Goons, Panfam under permanent, continuous war decs to introduce a slight element of risk to their activities in high sec. All the while war dec groups can still go for the easy targets who have dared to setup a structure for their small group, while bigger groups can just blob the attackers to death. So much less toxicity here, it’s amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicolai_serkanner/32/358049_2.png) [@Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicolai_Serkanner)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 8:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/770 "2020-07-08T08:50:11Z")
> [@Archer\_en\_Tilavine](#): > > The only thing that could top this is if it was revealed that @Mike_Azariah’s secretly manifested his evil alter ego in the form of @Nicolai_Serkanner… 👼😈 It would be irresponsible for me to perpetuate allegations that may prove to be unfounded. ---
**Author:** ![bluelysian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bluelysian/32/423769_2.png) [@bluelysian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/bluelysian)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 8:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/771 "2020-07-08T08:55:06Z")
> [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](#): > > But for some reasons you are incapable of understanding something as basic as the toxic role High-Sec wardecs had in the community. > [@Little\_Fawn](#): > > I am not the person you are addressing, but as a games industry veteran, I can tell you that there is absolutely no reason to believe that democracy makes for good games, and quite a bit of evidence to the contrary. It is very important for game designers to listen to players, but then interpret what they are saying carefully to make design decisions. > [@Little\_Fawn](#): > > Doing what is popular does not lead to good game design. You only have to look at the development of other MMOs to see this. Doing _anything_ that is popular in the short term can be very harmful to the long term. IT doesnt have to be democratic . And it may cause some people leave just after join. but not Every player profile suitable for EvE Online… and Eve not kind of game suitable for every player . ---
**Author:** ![bluelysian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bluelysian/32/423769_2.png) [@bluelysian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/bluelysian)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 9:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073/772 "2020-07-08T09:05:24Z")
Eve Online is a Sandbox game. In sandbox games after set up main frame and parameters, Developers minimal interference is essential to keep eco-system in natural balance … and can be require some interferences to keep this eco-system working healty esp. if these are result of prior interferences … But the issue is there is a risk always to breake something even more while trying to repair it… and all go into a endless circle …SO as a strategy best option can be create awareness within community and encourage them for take steps for possible solutions … [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073.md?page=35) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proving-of-kybernauts-for-glorification-in-the-flow-unfolds/252073.md?page=37)