# PvP vs bullying **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [June 28, 2019, 10:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287 "2019-06-28T10:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Kobran\_Ruthless\_Vaidrich](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kobran_ruthless_vaidrich/32/466355_2.png) [@Kobran\_Ruthless\_Vaidrich](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kobran_Ruthless_Vaidrich)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 11:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/183 "2019-07-02T11:19:03Z")
Drifters are bullying The Mittani. ---
**Author:** ![Jagati\_Khan81](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jagati_khan81/32/139190_2.png) [@Jagati\_Khan81](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jagati_Khan81)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 11:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/184 "2019-07-02T11:31:26Z")
PvP = bullying lmfao what a load of snowflake nonsense seriously OP go play a single player game I don’t think online gaming is for you. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 12:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/185 "2019-07-02T12:31:21Z")
No, the Mittani is using that as an excuse to bully hisec, sorry, wrong use of words here, an excuse to PvP hisec. * * * That being said some people on these forums are really into personal harassment, but that block facility makes these forums a rather relaxing experience now, and do you know what gets me, they never came after me in game. Part of gaming is to affect the other persons decision making, standard fare basically. You have to be careful in being too black and white as dewk said, I understand what he was getting at. But at the end of the day you can say ‘not for me’ and walk away, it might hurt your pride and this is where we get into the dangerous part of it. Some people look for someone who defines their success in Eve as being a major part of their life. As Eve is a game which has a lot of effort and time/emotional capital in it then the impacts are always going to be harder. And those people are very vulnerable. Anyway, too many people doing the black knight and white knight thing… ---
**Author:** ![Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mayhaw_morgan/32/412682_2.png) [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mayhaw_Morgan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 12:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/186 "2019-07-02T12:55:52Z")
> [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > IF [EVE Online] is not [a game]… but it IS… Prove EVE Online is a game. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > that’s not the question that was asked here . . . What was asked is whether PvP in EvE can be bullying Read the original post again. The first question, “Where, in your opinion, pvp ends and bullying starts and vice versa in regards to EvE gameplay?” implies that bullying is possible. The second question is ambiguous but it seems to be soliciting other opinions about whether the term “bullying” DOES apply, not whether it CAN apply, to EVE gameplay. The third question, “If no, can you share, what activity player should perform in regard to EvE gameplay, in order for this activity to be called by term ‘bullying’ by you.” is asking for the reasoning for why you might not think EVE gameplay is bullying. Nowhere in there is it asking if PVP CAN be bullying. It is assumed that it can. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > Bullying within the game is possible, indeed, but only by breaking the game rules. Wow, who wrote these perfect game rules, that have no loopholes, no exceptions, no ambiguities, etc.? They should write real laws. In fact, maybe they should rule the world . . . or maybe you’re wrong and maybe the game rules are as fallible as any other rules written by monkies. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > bullying within the context AND the rules of baseball (or any other sport) isn’t possible. This makes me think you’ve just never played a sport. Why . . . the [expletive deleted] . . . do you think they wear bears and lions and tigers 'n [expletive deleted] on their shirts? (Hint: It is to intimidate the other team’s players.) In baseball, you can throw a hard object 100 miles per hour virtually AT the opposing players. You can get killed for wearing the wrong jersey in the wrong stadium. You can be pretty sure your argument is wrong when it starts diverging from observed reality. “Bullying” or whatever you want to call it occurs so often in sports that many, if not most, have protocols for ejecting players from the game for doing it. You don’t need rules for events that never occur. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > The mouse laying down doesn’t make the game stop and the cat disappear. Okay, so if I sit a mouse in front of a chess board, he’s playing chess? Is a game participatory or not? Make up your mind. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > In EvE, the mouse may _choose_ to not play the game by docking and logging off, in which case the game stops (for him), the cat disappears, and he may go on with his (real) life where the cat does not even exist. Here is where you show what a screwball you are. Let me help you out: mice don’t play EVE. Docking is part of the game. Logging off . . . logoffski is a tactic used to gain advantage in the game. You’ll have to be more specific about the circumstances under which the logoff occurs. The game of EVE Online only stops for about 15 minutes every day, normally. Just because you logged off doesn’t mean the game stopped. It’s . . . persistent. The cat (i.e. the other players) do not “disappear”. Maybe you would like to reword that. The mouse (i.e. player 1) does not get to go on with his life insofar as his life was enjoying the hobby of playing EVE Online. He has to stop that because someone is ruining that experience for him and the only effective response he has available is to go do something else. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > No, again, that’s choosing _how_ to play the game, not _whether_ to play the game. The mouse in RL cannot choose to make the cat disappear. I see . . . so by not playing cat-and-mouse, the mouse is still playing cat-and-mouse. And in order to not play cat-and-mouse, the mouse would have to . . . make the cat disappear? 👽 > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > How is any of this relevant to the discussion again? Maybe it is. Maybe it isn’t. But your insanity must first be exposed before it can be combated and contained. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > EvE is not “just a game” _for me_ Clearly. ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgeminer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/knowledgeminer/32/422883_2.png) [@Knowledgeminer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Knowledgeminer)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/187 "2019-07-02T21:42:17Z")
> [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Prove EVE Online is a game. Really? Again? Did you miss when I already answered this in my previous post or what? > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Read the original post again. I did. Did you read the thread title too? You know, to put what the OP says in context… > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > The first question, “Where, in your opinion, pvp ends and bullying starts and vice versa in regards to EvE gameplay?” implies that bullying is possible. No, it doesn’t. As I and others have said, bullying in EvE is indeed possible (by breaking the rules), but someone asking where it starts doesn’t imply anything about whether it’s possible… if anything, it might imply the OP _thinks_ it’s possible, but that’s it… > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Nowhere in there is it asking if PVP CAN be bullying. It is assumed that it can. Not sure why this matters, but I don’t see anywhere in her post the OP _assuming_ PvP can be bullying. What I see is her _asking_ what other players think would constitute bullying. Since a possible answer to that question is ‘nothing’, asking that by no means implies assuming bullying can happen… But again, not sure why it would matter if it was as you say… > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Wow, who wrote these perfect game rules, that have no loopholes, no exceptions, no ambiguities, etc.? They should write real laws. No, you misunderstood. You keep confusing game with reality. The game rules make bullying impossible (without breaking the rules) by the mere fact of defining what constitutes abusive behaviour _within the game_. It’s the fact that it is a game what makes those rules “perfect” in that regard, regardless of whether they would be adequate for real life or not. Maybe this can be made clearer using fighting sports such as boxing or martial arts as an example. Things that would be completely unacceptable in real life are perfectly acceptable and don’t constitute abusive behaviour in any way when done in those sports according to their rules. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > This makes me think you’ve just never played a sport. Actually, I have, one in which physical contact is part of the game, FWIW. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Why . . . the [expletive deleted] . . . do you think they wear bears and lions and tigers 'n [expletive deleted] on their shirts? (Hint: It is to intimidate the other team’s players.) In baseball, you can throw a hard object 100 miles per hour virtually AT the opposing players. You can get killed for wearing the wrong jersey in the wrong stadium. So what? How is any of that bullying or abusive behaviour if it’s done according to the game rules that everybody playing the game knows? > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > You can be pretty sure your argument is wrong when it starts diverging from observed reality. “Bullying” or whatever you want to call it occurs so often in sports that many, if not most, have protocols for ejecting players from the game for doing it. You don’t need rules for events that never occur. Actually, this is precisely what I’m saying and proves I’m right, not wrong. The game rules define what constitutes abusive behaviour _within the game_ and what not. Those rules don’t have to be appropriate to define what constitutes abusive behaviour in real life _outside_ the game in any way (other than abide by the laws of the country in which they happen), just define what constitutes abusive behaviour _within_ the game. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Okay, so if I sit a mouse in front of a chess board, he’s playing chess? LOL, of course not. What do you mean? > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Is a game participatory or not? Not sure what it is that you’re asking here, but the ability to _choose_ whether you want to play a game or not is essential for it to be considered a game. Something you cannot choose whether you want to play or not cannot be considered a game for you. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Make up your mind. About what? Where have I not been consistent so far? > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > > > In EvE, the mouse may _choose_ to not play the game by docking and logging off, in which case the game stops (for him), the cat disappears, and he may go on with his (real) life where the cat does not even exist. > > Here is where you show what a screwball you are. Really? Interesting… > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Let me help you out: mice don’t play EVE. LOL. Why would you feel the need to make this remark? > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Docking is part of the game. Logging off . . . logoffski is a tactic used to gain advantage in the game. Yes, of course, anything you do in EvE until you log off, including docking, is part of the game. The moment you log off, you’re not playing the game anymore (with that character), regardless of what the reason to log off was. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > You’ll have to be more specific about the circumstances under which the logoff occurs. No, I don’t. If you’re logged on, you’re playing the game. If you’re off, you’re not. Simple as that. The fact that you may _temporarily_ log off as a tactic to log on later is irrelevant. It just means you stopped playing for some amount of time and resumed playing again later. Even if you’re talking to other players while you’re logged off, you’re still _not_ playing the game. You’re doing some other activity related to the game that may or may not impact what happens in the game, but not playing the game yourself while you’re logged off. That said, it doesn’t really matter if you want to consider you’re still playing the game in some way when you _temporarily_ log off with the intention to log on later. It may make the discussion harder to follow because of terminology and word meaning issues, but doesn’t really make a difference if everybody understands what’s being said at any given moment. So feel free to disagree with what I just said if you want. Just make it clear what you mean when you say you’re playing the game so everybody following the discussion understands. It won’t matter. **What matters is the fact that you may _choose_ whether you want to play the game or not**. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Just because you logged off doesn’t mean the game stopped. It’s . . . persistent. Right, but doesn’t matter. **What matters is that, if you don’t want what happens there to affect you in any way, you may _choose_ to do that.** > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > The cat (i.e. the other players) do not “disappear”. If you _choose_ to not play the game, it does disappear _for you_. That they’re still there if you _choose_ to later play the game again doesn’t change the fact that you may _choose_ whether you want to play the game or not. That’s something the mouse in RL doesn’t get to choose. That’s the BIG difference here. It’s the fact that EvE is a game what makes this difference possible. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > The mouse (i.e. player 1) does not get to go on with his life insofar as his life was enjoying the hobby of playing EVE Online. He has to stop that because someone is ruining that experience for him and the only effective response he has available is to go do something else. And here we finally arrive at the crux of the problem. The mouse player _chose_ at some point to make EvE part of his life… But then he doesn’t like some of the things that happen to him in the game after the fact… Only **those things were already part of the game when he _chose_ to make the game part of his life…** Now, there are a couple things going on here that need clarification in order to be able to proceed any further: - The mouse player _interprets_ the things that happen to him as some other player “ruining” his game experience. Why? Because he lost a ship in a spaceship shooting game? How exactly is his game experience being “ruined” by someone else? - The mouse player _thinks_ the only effective response he has available is to stop doing what he enjoys doing and go do something else. Again, why? How is that the only option? How is it not an option adapting, learning to do things better, and minimising the risk of bad things happening to him? > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > I see . . . so by not playing cat-and-mouse, the mouse is still playing cat-and-mouse. And in order to not play cat-and-mouse, the mouse would have to . . . make the cat disappear? 👽 No, you misunderstood again. The premise “by not playing cat-and-mouse” is false. The mouse doesn’t get to _choose_ whether he wants to play the game in RL. If the cat wants to play with the mouse in RL, the mouse _has to_. That’s the BIG difference with the mouse player in EvE. What the EvE mouse player can do, precisely because EvE is a game, has no equivalent for the mouse in RL. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > your insanity must first be exposed before it can be combated and contained. _My_ insanity… So did you manage to expose it already or not yet? ---
**Author:** ![Noragen\_Neirfallas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/noragen_neirfallas/32/375148_2.png) [@Noragen\_Neirfallas](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Noragen_Neirfallas)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 11:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/188 "2019-07-02T23:45:55Z")
> [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Prove EVE Online is a game. Don’t be lazy go buy a dictionary ---
**Author:** ![Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mayhaw_morgan/32/412682_2.png) [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mayhaw_Morgan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 11:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/189 "2019-07-02T23:47:03Z")
> [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > I don’t see anywhere in her post the OP _assuming_ PvP can be bullying. “Where, in your opinion, pvp ends and bullying starts and vice versa in regards to EvE gameplay?” ^ this is a question. It has two distinct parts: a premise and a query. Premise: PVP ends, bullying starts in regards to EVE gameplay. Query: Where? Game Over Play again? y/n [implicit premise](https://www.khanacademy.org/partner-content/wi-phi/wiphi-critical-thinking/wiphi-fundamentals/v/implicit-premise) > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > You keep confusing game with reality. You said we disappear when you log off. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > The game rules make bullying impossible Yes, just like rules against theft make thieving impossible. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > . . . abusive behaviour _within the game_ . There is no “abusive” behavior “within” the game. The game does not have “abuse” as any part of its procedural structure. The question is whether we can use the various procedures available to us in-game to commit abuse. No one is claiming there is an “Abuse Player” button in EVE Online. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > the ability to _choose_ whether you want to play a game or not is essential for it to be considered a game. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > you may _choose_ whether you want to play the game or not. That’s something _the mouse in RL doesn’t get to choose_. I said to prove EVE Online is a game. What you have done here is prove that at least a large category of “gameplay” is not actually a game, because it is not participatory. There are consequences for the mouse “logging out” while under attack. There are consequences for me “logging out” while under attack. I assume you know what a logoff timer is. Warp disruptor? > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > The mouse player _interprets_ the things that happen to him as some other player “ruining” his game experience. Why? Because he lost a ship in a spaceship shooting game? How exactly is his game experience being “ruined” by someone else? Are you asserting that someone who believes their experience has been ruined . . . should believe otherwise? Are you asserting that someone who feels their experience has been ruined . . . should feel otherwise? Is that reasonable? > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > The mouse player _thinks_ the only effective response he has available is to stop doing what he enjoys doing and go do something else. Again, why? How is that the only option? How is it not an option adapting, learning to do things better, and minimising the risk of bad things happening to him? Aside from the fact that the game just doesn’t allow you to “adapt” sometimes, and aside from the fact that the gameplay is structured to make certain outcomes occur, and aside from the the fact that some players don’t want to play in certain ways or pursue certain outcomes, because they don’t value those outcomes, and aside from the fact that “minimising the risk of bad things happening” often equates to NOT playing EVE . . . aside from all that and whatever I missed, nothing is stopping the mouse player from continuing, or at least continuing to enjoy the game while failing at it. 👽 ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgeminer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/knowledgeminer/32/422883_2.png) [@Knowledgeminer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Knowledgeminer)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 9:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/190 "2019-07-03T09:37:51Z")
> [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > “Where, in your opinion, pvp ends and bullying starts and vice versa in regards to EvE gameplay?” > ^ this is a question. It has two distinct parts: a premise and a query. > Premise: PVP ends, bullying starts in regards to EVE gameplay. Except possible answers to that question are “nowhere”, or “bullying in EVE is where the game mechanics stop and social harassment starts”, as one of the participants said in [another post](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/12) (and which would qualify as breaking the rules)… The OP is not assuming PvP can be bullying when she asks that question. If anything, the assumption would be that bullying in EvE is possible, which I’ve already said multiple times is the case (by breaking the rules). But you don’t have to believe me, you may just read what the OP said immediately afterwards: > [@Szkarlatyna](#): > > Can term ‘bullying’ be applied to EvE as so called ‘pvp’ focused game? Why would she ask that question if she was assuming PvP can be bullying? Makes no sense. She’s obviously _asking_ whether PvP in EvE can be bullying, not _assuming_ it can be… Not that it would matter if it was otherwise, mind you. She could very well have worded it differently, be as wrong as you are and _assume_ PvP can be bullying like you do, but pretending that she did in this case is simply misrepresenting the OP… > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > You said we disappear when you log off. What happens in EvE disappears from my life when I log off, yes. Why would you say this in reply to me saying you confuse game with reality? To prove that I don’t? > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > > > The game rules make bullying impossible > > Yes, just like rules against theft make thieving impossible. Man, if you’re going to make wrong conclusions based on something I said, at least do it properly and don’t omit the relevant parts. What I said is that the game rules make bullying impossible _ **without breaking the rules** _. See the difference? I emphasised it this time to make it easier for you. Now, had you done this properly (which you obviously have no interest in doing), you could have said “just like rules against theft make thieving impossible without breaking the law”, and then you would have been _almost_ right… but not completely… the reason for the latter being precisely the fact that EvE is a game but RL is not… Games have the luxury of being able to define what constitutes abusive behaviour _within the game_ and what not in any way their creators want (as long as they abide by the laws that regulate those games in real life, that is). What makes this luxury possible is that BIG difference with RL that I keep talking about, i.e. the ability to _choose_ whether you want to play the game or not. You may simply not play boxing if you don’t find being punched in the face acceptable, not play baseball if you don’t find having a ball thrown at you acceptable, and not play spaceship shooting games if you don’t find your virtual spaceship being shot acceptable. This is a luxury people don’t have in real life. And this is where what may be acceptable to some may not be acceptable to others becomes a problem. If everybody agreed on what constitutes misbehaviour and the laws reflected that, then yes, thieving and any other kind of misbehaviour would be impossible _without breaking the law_ in real life too. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > There is no “abusive” behavior “within” the game. The game does not have “abuse” as any part of its procedural structure. LOL. When I talk about player behaviour within the game, I’m obviously referring to the things that players do as part of playing the game. Do you really think this “clarification” was necessary? How would you refer to that so you may differentiate between what happens as part of playing the game from what happens outside the game? Or is the problem here precisely that you cannot differentiate between those two things? > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > What you have done here is prove that at least a large category of “gameplay” is not actually a game, because it is not participatory. What? Which large category of EvE gameplay is not participatory? And how does the fact that the mouse player may _choose_ whether he wants to play the game or not prove that? The mouse player may _choose_ to play the game and deal with the cat too… > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > There are consequences for me “logging out” while under attack. Yes, of course, logging off while under attack is a terrible idea if you want to play the game. It’s _outside_ the game that the consequences don’t mean ■■■■. But so what? Why would you bring this up? > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Are you asserting that someone who feels their experience has been ruined . . . should feel otherwise? Did you see the question marks in the part of my post you were replying to here? Do those questions look assertions to you? I even said “there are a couple things going on here that need clarification” to make it clear that the questions weren’t rhetorical and do need an answer… which you haven’t provided… > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > the game just doesn’t allow you to “adapt” sometimes Such as? > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > the gameplay is structured to make certain outcomes occur Such as? > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > some players don’t want to play in certain ways or pursue certain outcomes This is perfectly fine. Nobody has to play EvE in any particular way other than being aware he/she has _chosen_ to play in a single shard MMO game where other players may enjoy doing things he/she doesn’t (and that are allowed by the game rules). > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > “minimising the risk of bad things happening” often equates to NOT playing EVE This is an outright lie. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > aside from all that and whatever I missed, nothing is stopping the mouse player from continuing, or at least continuing to enjoy the game while failing at it. This is correct. But nothing stops him from continuing to enjoy the game _without failing_ either. It’s all up to him. ---
**Author:** ![Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mayhaw_morgan/32/412682_2.png) [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mayhaw_Morgan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 1:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/191 "2019-07-03T13:26:06Z")
> [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > Except possible answers to that question are “nowh . . . You’re refusing to accept the premise. That’s fine, but you don’t get to make up a different question and substitute it for the one with the premise you don’t like. It is also possible that the original post wasn’t worded accurately and the original poster MEANT something other than what they SAID. But until and unless they ammend the original post, we have to assume that what they SAID is what they MEANT. Here is what they said: PVP ends in regards to EVE gameplay. Bullying starts in regards to EVE gameplay. Where does PVP end in regards to EVE gameplay and bullying starts? They are just asking what differentiates PVP and bullying as EVE gameplay. They are not asking if bullying occurs as EVE gameplay any more than they are asking if PVP occurs as EVE gameplay. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > Why would she ask [Can term ‘bullying’ be applied to EvE as so called ‘pvp’ focused game?] if she was assuming PvP can be bullying? Well, one reason she might ask such a question is that she doesn’t assume you agree with her premise. She seems to be asking for alternate viewpoints, and then she immediately asks for your reasoning, pro or con. I don’t honestly know and the question is vaguely worded, but the rest of the questioning isn’t vaguely worded. It is concise. Read the last question: “can you share, what activity player should perform in regard to EvE gameplay, in order for this activity to be called by term ‘bullying’ by you.” Again, the assumption is that there are actions you can take in regard to EVE gameplay that would constitute bullying. She’s not asking if there are such actions. She’s asking you to tell her which actions those are. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > you . . . _assume_ PvP can be bullying All bullying is PVP. You can’t bully an inanimate object and an inanimate object can’t bully you. Bullying is always at least one person versus at least one other person. The question at hand is whether the PVP that occurs in EVE Online is bullying, not PVP in EVE overall, but specifically what PVP is bullying. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > What happens in EvE disappears from my life when I log off And does your mom disappear when you leave her house? Does your job disappear when you clock out? Does your dog go into suspended animation when you go on vacation without him? > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > what I said is that the game rules make bullying impossible _ **without breaking the rules** _ . Okay . . . and the rules against theft make thievery impossible without breaking the rules. True story. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > Games have the luxury of being able to define what constitutes abusive behaviour _within the game_ There is no rule in baseball against clubbing the opposing players with your bat. There is no clause in the rule book that says the pitcher can’t throw the ball directly at the batter’s head as hard as he can. You can’t make rules against everything that might violate the integrity of the game. There is no “no steroids” rule in baseball. That is the policy of many baseball leagues. In boxing, the game is to abuse the other player until they quit, are rendered incapacitated, or the opposing coach throws in the towel. There are no rules against abuse. There are rules FOR how you must abuse the opposing player for the abuse to be valid gameplay. You can beat a man to death in the boxing ring as long as you only use your hands, beat him in the front, upper half of his body, give him a break between rounds, wear boxing gloves, etc. A game is one or more victory conditions and a set of procedures for how you achieve the victory condition(s). Everything else is meta-rules. They are not within the game. Stabbing people in the boxing ring is not against the rules of boxing. It’s against the law. It’s not that you can’t checkmate a chess opponent on turn one by moving all your pieces across the board simultaneously. It is only that there is no procedure in the game of chess for doing so. Bullying people with your internet spaceship isn’t against the rules of EVE Online. The rules of EVE Online make having an internet spaceship possible and thus make it even possible to bully someone with an internet spaceship. And in order to make a rule in EVE against bullying, you’d have to identify which procedures could be used abusively and how and disallow that. But they can’t know every possible sequence that could result in abuse, letalone chronic, concentrated abuse. And, yet, you’re telling us that bullying is impossible because ::rules:: > [@](#): > > - Why would you say this in reply to me saying you confuse game with reality? To prove that I don’t? > - Do you really think this “clarification” was necessary? How would you refer to that so you may differentiate between what happens as part of playing the game from what happens outside the game? Or is the problem here precisely that you cannot differentiate between those two things? > - What? Which large category of EvE gameplay is not participatory? And how does the fact that the mouse player may choose whether he wants to play the game or not prove that? > - But so what? Why would you bring this up? > - Did you see the question marks in the part of my post you were replying to here? Do those questions look assertions to you? > - Such as? > - Such as? ^ I found these questions in your post but I’m not sure what they mean? What are you trying to say? Why would you ask these questions? I don’t understand. 😳 ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 1:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/192 "2019-07-03T13:33:08Z")
This thread is bullying me ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 1:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/193 "2019-07-03T13:41:48Z")
All that spaghetti logic needs a cheese sauce to add the finishing touches. ---
**Author:** ![Marek\_Kanenald](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marek_kanenald/32/257788_2.png) [@Marek\_Kanenald](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marek_Kanenald)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 1:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/194 "2019-07-03T13:51:09Z")
It becomes bullying when it stops being about the game and start being about people in real life. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/195 "2019-07-03T16:12:55Z")
> [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Consider the cat and the mouse; the cat is just playing. The mouse is fighting for its life. Who is “right”? Well lets see you can pay an exterminator to kill mice. You can buy deadly mousetraps at most stores. A positive aspect of a cat is “he is a good mouser”. I’d say the cat is right. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 4:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/196 "2019-07-03T16:14:44Z")
> [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Prove EVE Online is a game. Talk about full of ■■■■, there goes your credibility. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 4:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/197 "2019-07-03T16:38:44Z")
You say that like he had any in the first place. He seems to think that high school debate level arguments and pseudo intellectualism is a substitute for using what’s between his ears, if in fact there is anything other than a gaping void there… ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgeminer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/knowledgeminer/32/422883_2.png) [@Knowledgeminer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Knowledgeminer)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/198 "2019-07-03T18:49:53Z")
> [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > You’re refusing to accept the premise. Yes, of course, because no such premise exists, you’re making it up. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > you don’t get to make up a different question and substitute it for the one with the premise you don’t like. Which question did I make up? She asked “Can term ‘bullying’ be applied to EvE as so called ‘pvp’ focused game?” How is that not asking whether PvP in EvE can be bullying? > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > we have to assume that what they SAID is what they MEANT Exactly. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > PVP ends in regards to EVE gameplay. Bullying starts in regards to EVE gameplay. No, that’s not what she SAID, that’s what you’re interpreting she MEANT… > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > They are not asking if bullying occurs as EVE gameplay any more than they are asking if PVP occurs as EVE gameplay. Of course she is, as evidenced by all the other questions in that post about the meaning and applicability of the term ‘bullying’ with no equivalent questions for PvP… > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > “can you share, what activity player should perform in regard to EvE gameplay, in order for this activity to be called by term ‘bullying’ by you.” > > Again, the assumption is that there are actions you can take in regard to EVE gameplay that would constitute bullying. She’s not asking if there are such actions. She’s asking you to tell her which actions those are. A possible answer to questions like that is ‘none’, so there is no assumption about whether such actions exist or not in that kind of questions by the mere fact of asking them. The OP may very well think bullying does happen (which again does, but only against the rules), but that’s not something that can be inferred from her asking those questions. You’re making it up. Anyway, this is getting ridiculous. It leads nowhere and makes no difference. It doesn’t really matter whether the OP made any of the assumptions you say she made. Plus she may simply chime in and clarify whatever it is that she assumed or not if she wants. So I’m going to simply ignore anything else you say about this. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > And does your mom disappear when you leave her house? See? This perfectly illustrates the problem you have and have normalised so much that cannot realise it’s a problem. No. My mom doesn’t disappear from my life simply because I don’t see her. The things that are part of my real life (i.e. the life that does exist outside of EvE, not whatever it is that you think is “real”) do continue being part of my life regardless of whether I can see them or not. But what happens in EvE is **not** part of my real life, it’s part of a game. It’s part of my life only when I’m playing, not when I’m not. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > You can’t make rules against everything that might violate the integrity of the game. But you don’t have to. You just need to have generic rules against violence and non-accidental aggressions to cover all those cases. All games I know of have that kind of rules and that’s precisely why sometimes players get kicked from the game for breaking those rules… > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > In boxing, the game is to abuse the other player until they quit, are rendered incapacitated, or the opposing coach throws in the towel. There are no rules against abuse. There are rules FOR how you must abuse the opposing player for the abuse to be valid gameplay. You’re playing with the meaning of the word ‘abuse’ here. Boxing is abuse in the sense of causing harm to the other participant, yes, **not** in the sense of bullying, which is what we’re supposed to be talking about. There is no imbalance of power and the participants know what the game rules are and willingly accept to play the game according to them. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > A game is one or more victory conditions and a set of procedures for how you achieve the victory condition(s). Everything else is meta-rules. Hey man, I gave you a very detailed explanation of what a game is, remember? Feel free to refer to some other widely accepted definition if you prefer, but please refrain from making up a definition of your own, ok? > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Stabbing people in the boxing ring is not against the rules of boxing. It’s against the law. LOL. The game rules cannot allow anything that the law doesn’t allow it to, but so what if cases like this have to be referred to the law instead of to the game rules themselves. Why would this matter? > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > It’s not that you can’t checkmate a chess opponent on turn one by moving all your pieces across the board simultaneously. It is only that there is no procedure in the game of chess for doing so. You don’t know what you’re talking about. [Rules of Chess](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_chess) > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Bullying people with your internet spaceship isn’t against the rules of EVE Online. It’s not that it isn’t against the rules, it’s that there is no such thing as bullying people with a spaceship in EvE unless you do something with it that CCP has stated is not allowed. As long as it’s part of the allowed gameplay, it cannot be considered bullying. You cannot undock in a spaceship shooting GAME like EvE and then attribute the intention to hurt you physically, mentally or emotionally to anyone that PvPs you with his spaceship _unless_ evidenced otherwise, e.g. through social means like chat harassment. Without some such form of rule breaking harassment, the player aggressing you is merely having fun playing the game as intended, and hence what he does cannot be considered bullying. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > But they can’t know every possible sequence that could result in abuse, letalone chronic, concentrated abuse. And, yet, you’re telling us that bullying is impossible because ::rules:: You don’t get it. It’s not a matter of how exhaustive the rules are. It’s a matter of it being a GAME. The fact it is a GAME is the reason anything allowed by its rules cannot be considered bullying, regardless of how exhaustive those rules are. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > ^ I found these questions in your post but I’m not sure what they mean? What are you trying to say? Why would you ask these questions? I don’t understand. 😳 ROFLMAO. Hint: You need to see the quote preceding each of those questions to put them in context… If you’re really interested in understanding anything here, that is… Which I’m pretty sure at this point you’re not… Sorry, but it’s not my fault that you make remarks that are irrelevant to the discussion, or vaguely talk about concepts that you have all messed up in your head and are unwilling to properly analyse for fear that the flaws in your “reasoning” could be exposed… ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/199 "2019-07-03T19:16:56Z")
He loves words. He’s away to dissect that now and apply non-logic to it. Then he’ll be back to vomit it at you, but cherry-quoted. And yes Im very well aware I just made that phrase up. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/200 "2019-07-03T19:24:42Z")
That reminds me of somebody else, except they don’t have a face. They both love words, but don’t appear to understand what they mean. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/201 "2019-07-03T19:30:32Z")
Yeah funny that. ---
**Author:** ![Noragen\_Neirfallas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/noragen_neirfallas/32/375148_2.png) [@Noragen\_Neirfallas](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Noragen_Neirfallas)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 8:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/203 "2019-07-03T20:59:47Z")
> [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Okay, but I’m not going to disappear, just like your mom. In case anyone wanted to see where you go from PvP to bullying this is it [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287.md?page=9) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287.md?page=11)