# PvP vs bullying **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [June 28, 2019, 10:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287 "2019-06-28T10:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Knowledgeminer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/knowledgeminer/32/422883_2.png) [@Knowledgeminer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Knowledgeminer)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/162 "2019-07-01T23:56:19Z")
> [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > It should go without saying that logging into Tranquility does not suspend reality or your participation in it. […] In reality, what happens in our minds REALLY HAPPENS! What happens on Tranquility REALLY HAPPENS! Exactly. That’s why I say those destroying your stuff in EvE should go to jail right away. Destroying other people’s property against their will is criminal. How comes this guy is the only one that seems to get it right? Can you people not see that the only thing that matters is what happens in one’s mind or what? ---
**Author:** ![zazzmatazz\_Xu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zazzmatazz_xu/32/451037_2.png) [@zazzmatazz\_Xu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/zazzmatazz_Xu)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 11:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/163 "2019-07-01T23:57:29Z")
Logic and reason are a small part of the equation of Internet tough guys, don’t try you can’t get thru as their skulls are made entirely of lead. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 12:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/164 "2019-07-02T00:16:56Z")
> [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > Can you people not see that the only thing that matters is what happens in one’s mind or what? 1000s of people, for reasons we will never fully understand, decide the red means go, green means stop. Civilization is a state of mind. EVE is just not the civilization many expected ☠ ---
**Author:** ![Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mayhaw_morgan/32/412682_2.png) [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mayhaw_Morgan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 1:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/165 "2019-07-02T01:19:48Z")
> [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > those destroying your stuff in EvE should go to jail right away. For the sake of argument, let’s assume you are being earnest: your “stuff” exists electronically, as a certain configuration of CCP’s property. For someone to “steal” or “destroy” your stuff is simply for them to change the configuration of CCP’s property. So, it is to say that you want to restrict CCP and their other customers from changing CCP’s property from a specific state to a different state. That’s like you taking an airplane, putting the seat back, and then expecting the airline to leave the seat back until you consented to them changing the seat configuration. And, then you’re asserting that anyone who comes and sits in the seat and changes its configuration should go to jail. Do you see the problem with this? > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > Can you people not see that the only thing that matters is what happens in one’s mind or what? Quote where I said that or apologize for misrepresenting my argument. (I don’t seriously expect you to do either.) ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgeminer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/knowledgeminer/32/422883_2.png) [@Knowledgeminer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Knowledgeminer)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 2:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/166 "2019-07-02T02:21:08Z")
> [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Quote where I said that or apologize for misrepresenting my argument. (I don’t seriously expect you to do either.) What is the following supposed to mean and how is it relevant to anything being discussed here? Because the way I read it is you’re saying there is no real distinction between reality and fantasy because it’s all a matter of “perspective”… > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > “Game” is a perspective. “Reality” is a perspective. “Play” is as perspective. “Combat” is a perspective. YOUR perspective of an event is not necessarily the same as someone else’s. And, perspectives change. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 2:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/167 "2019-07-02T02:39:35Z")
> “Reality” is a perspective. Perspective shapes reality, this much is true; but reality isn’t a perspective. Reality is objective, how you see it is subjective, being based on your perception of it. ---
**Author:** ![Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mayhaw_morgan/32/412682_2.png) [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mayhaw_Morgan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 2:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/168 "2019-07-02T02:53:25Z")
> [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > you’re saying there is no real distinction between reality and fantasy because it’s all a matter of “perspective”… > **[Definition of CON](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/con)** > > something (such as a ruse) used deceptively to gain another's confidence; also : a confidence game : swindle… See the full definition Deception occurs when an individual causes another individual to believe in a fantasy that is inconsistent with reality. For instance, I might try to convince you that your neighborhood is safe so that you don’t lock your doors, thus allowing me to burglarize your home. I might convince you to have a drink with me only to find you’ve been drugged by something I put in your drink. I might convince you that we were playing a game, poker perhaps, when in reality, I was just stealing your money a little at a time. In each of these scenarios, there are two competing perspectives. Which perspective fits the facts of the circumstance better is just a matter of opinion, except maybe in extreme cases. Consider the cat and the mouse; the cat is just playing. The mouse is fighting for its life. Who is “right”? ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgeminer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/knowledgeminer/32/422883_2.png) [@Knowledgeminer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Knowledgeminer)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 3:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/169 "2019-07-02T03:03:54Z")
You really need to stop talking about those concepts in such a generic way and answer the question of how all this stuff is relevant to the subject at hand. That EvE is a game is **not** a matter of perspective, yet that’s what you appear to be trying to say with completely unrelated examples that have nothing to do with playing a computer game… ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 3:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/170 "2019-07-02T03:10:13Z")
> [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Consider the cat and the mouse; the cat is just playing. The mouse is fighting for its life. Who is “right”? Cats and mice are hardly apt comparisons given your examples of human activities that require forethought and malice. Humans are not wholly driven by instinct having developed morals and directed our baser ones elsewhere. Most other mammals are. If you want to attribute our morals on a cat, it is a lovable little furry ball of teeth and claws that’s also a psychopathic serial killer with no remorse. ---
**Author:** ![Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mayhaw_morgan/32/412682_2.png) [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mayhaw_Morgan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 3:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/171 "2019-07-02T03:13:20Z")
> [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > unrelated examples that have nothing to do with playing a computer game One of the examples I gave is just straight up a computer game. Computer poker and online poker . . . exist. Another example, “cat and mouse”, is a game that any EVE PVPer can tell you goes on all the time in EVE. Another example, convincing someone that they don’t need to lock their doors, is pretty similar to a CEO or corp director telling you to put your stuff in corp hangars that he/she has access to. I get the feeling that you are aren’t trying very hard to understand what I’m saying. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > That EvE is a game is **not** a matter of perspective Prove EVE is a game. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 3:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/172 "2019-07-02T03:15:36Z")
> [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Another example, “cat and mouse”, is a game that any EVE PVPer can tell you goes on all the time in EVE. I can see how it’s relevant. In Eve there’s no shame in being a [better](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDpmVUEjagg) mouse, the other mice are generally enough to satisfy the cat. In RL the better mouse dies long before the cat anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Avaelica\_Kuershin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/avaelica_kuershin/32/478139_2.png) [@Avaelica\_Kuershin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Avaelica_Kuershin)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 3:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/173 "2019-07-02T03:35:49Z")
I will have to name my DST "Better Mouse " ---
**Author:** ![Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_the_flame/32/490165_2.png) [@Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_the_Flame)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/174 "2019-07-02T07:32:05Z")
“CCP giveth yer space pixels and Pearl Abyss taketh away” :psyccp: ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgeminer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/knowledgeminer/32/422883_2.png) [@Knowledgeminer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Knowledgeminer)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 8:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/176 "2019-07-02T08:09:20Z")
> [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > One of the examples I gave is just straight up a computer game. Computer poker and online poker . . . exist. Yeah, well, poker can be played on a computer too, ok, but the question was how is all this stuff relevant to the issue at hand… That you may use poker to take money away from another player doesn’t change the fact that poker is still a game. Sure it can also be considered work by someone making a living from it, but so what? What does it have to do with whether EvE is a game or not? > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Another example, “cat and mouse”, is a game that any EVE PVPer can tell you goes on all the time in EVE. LOL. Except the mouse in real life doesn’t get to choose whether he wants to “play” with the cat, whereas precisely because it’s a game, you may _choose_ whether you want to play EvE or not. BIG difference… > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Another example, convincing someone that they don’t need to lock their doors, is pretty similar to a CEO or corp director telling you to put your stuff in corp hangars that he/she has access to. Yes, well, you can be scammed and deceived both in EvE and in real life, but so what? You appear to be saying that EvE may be considered to not be a game depending on perspective simply because there are things that may happen both in EvE and in real life. But this is irrelevant. Having similarities with real life makes no difference to whether something is a game or not… > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Prove EVE is a game. See? It’s when you say things like this that you seem to believe the only thing that matters is what happens in one’s mind, regardless of facts… Whether EvE is a game or not is just a matter of whether it fits the definition of what is a game, and it obviously does. What needs to be proven about it? > **[Game](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game)** > > A game is a structured form of play, usually undertaken for entertainment or fun, and sometimes used as an educational tool. Many games are also considered to be work (such as professional players of spectator sports or games) or art (such as jigsaw puzzles or games involving an artistic layout such as Mahjong, solitaire, or some video games). > Games are sometimes played purely for enjoyment, sometimes for achievement or reward as well. They can be played alone, in teams, or online; by amateur... ---
**Author:** ![Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mayhaw_morgan/32/412682_2.png) [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mayhaw_Morgan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 9:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/177 "2019-07-02T09:35:50Z")
> [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > how is all this stuff relevant to the issue at hand… If EVE Online is NOT a game, then it is not an excuse to say that [some event] took place within the context of the “game” or was within the rules of the “game”. But deeper than that is the question of whether “bullying”, however you wish to identify it, can or cannot occur within a “game”. Change the game from EVE Online to baseball. The questions I am asking are: Is baseball a game? But, also, did the event take place within the context of baseball? And, can an event that does take place within the context and the rules of baseball still be bullying? Can you not think of any circumstances in which “playing” baseball and “bullying” are synonymous? > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > the mouse in real life doesn’t get to choose whether he wants to “play” with the cat Of course the mouse gets to “choose”, insofar as mice are even capable of “choice”. The mouse can simply lay down and die. The consequence of abstaining from “game” will just probably be its life, but not necessarily. It’s actually even a survival strategy. Haven’t you heard of the term “playing possum”? What about “beta male”? Isn’t a beta male a male that doesn’t fight back against the “alpha”? It’s not my preferred strategy, but I’ve seen it work. Do blades of grass participate in the survival game? It looks like they’re just sitting there, passively, to me. So, what’s the difference between that and EVE, really? The mouse can also abstain by not coming out of its hole, but again, there are consequences to NOT playing the game. > [@Knowledgeminer](#): > > you can be scammed and deceived both in EvE and in real life . . . Having similarities with real life makes no difference to whether something is a game or not . . . You can also be scammed in real life using EVE and scammed in EVE using real life. I agree that whether a game is similar to reality or not does not determine whether it is a game or not a game. But I would add that whether something is a game or not does not determine whether it is real, only HOW it is real. A physical game, like football or automobile racing, has physical effects that are undeniable. But you’re failing to recognize the internal reality that exists within the racers or the players on a football field, for the fans, for the coaches, pit crews, etc. In EVE, there is a very different “physical” game field with a very different convention for associating its physicality to it’s symbolic significance. A car doesn’t blow up and you don’t dislocate your shoulder or get a concussion playing EVE. But think about it: people risk blowing up their car or dislocating a shoulder or getting a concussion . . . just to win a game. If it were “just a game”, why would they do this? ---
**Author:** ![Commander\_Kane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/commander_kane/32/199755_2.png) [@Commander\_Kane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Commander_Kane)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 9:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/178 "2019-07-02T09:35:51Z")
Knowledgeminer lying down the facts… There have been endless debates on EVE where people would state that you are the person in real life that you are in EVE. That is of course all hogwash. I have never felt the need to scam anybody in real life, I have never felt the need to hide behind a corner for somebody and then killing them. I do wish I was an immortal pod pilot though… but no amount of people trying to make me believe EVE is real will make that happen. If people equate what people do in eve to how they are in real life maybe they have the issue? Where they cannot distinguish between a game or real life. There are real people that suffer from this and I would suggest they seek professional help if that is the case. Anyway… PVP in EVE is not bullying. Harassing people is but I bet the same people that say PVP is bullying will also state that killing a defenceless barge is harassment. ---
**Author:** ![Noragen\_Neirfallas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/noragen_neirfallas/32/375148_2.png) [@Noragen\_Neirfallas](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Noragen_Neirfallas)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 9:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/179 "2019-07-02T09:41:59Z")
Miners in eve are pro destruction of our planet and mission runners… Genocidal maniacs the lot. Also @Solstice_Projekt check out that use of … 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_the_flame/32/490165_2.png) [@Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_the_Flame)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 9:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/180 "2019-07-02T09:49:10Z")
I’ve defeated countless people in chess, board games, sports events and online games of all kinds in general. According to the delusional people like OP this means people like me are like mass murderers who ruined the life of entire civilizations worth of other people. :facepalm: There can be bullying, think of the bonus room incident that was already mentioned, but I bet the outstanding majority of cases someone simply gets offended when someone outsmarts and outplays them in a vidya game and their ego is in shatters as a result of losing some space pixels. Just like how people shout hacker / cheater when you headshot them in counter-strike or countless other games and/or are simply better than them and they can’t cope with this fact. In short the actual toxic people are the ones who call others toxic for simply defeating them in a game, sore losers. The rare few cases when actual bullying happens CCP deals with just report the issue to support just like in the bonus room case. ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgeminer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/knowledgeminer/32/422883_2.png) [@Knowledgeminer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Knowledgeminer)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 11:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/181 "2019-07-02T11:01:32Z")
> [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > If EVE Online is NOT a game IF it is not… but it IS… > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > But deeper than that is the question of whether “bullying”, however you wish to identify it, can or cannot occur within a “game”. But that’s not the question that was asked here. Of course bullying _may_ occur within a game by means of abusive language, for example, but such behaviour is forbidden by the game rules. What was asked is whether PvP in EvE can be bullying, and the answer to that question is NO. Bullying within the game is possible, indeed, but only by breaking the game rules. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Is baseball a game? But, also, did the event take place within the context of baseball? And, can an event that does take place within the context and the rules of baseball still be bullying? Yes, baseball is of course a game. I don’t know its rules, but I’d be surprised if they don’t include dispositions that forbid abusive behaviour, so I’m inclined to believe that bullying within the context AND the rules of baseball (or any other sport) isn’t possible. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Can you not think of any circumstances in which “playing” baseball and “bullying” are synonymous? No, can you? > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > Of course the mouse gets to “choose”, insofar as mice are even capable of “choice”. The mouse can simply lay down and die. No, no, no. That’s choosing _how_ to play the game, not _whether_ to play the game. The mouse laying down doesn’t make the game stop and the cat disappear. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > So, what’s the difference between that and EVE, really? That’s the issue, isn’t it? Is it really _that_ difficult for you to see what the BIG difference is here? In EvE, the mouse may _choose_ to not play the game by docking and logging off, in which case the game stops (for him), the cat disappears, and he may go on with his (real) life where the cat does not even exist. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > The mouse can also abstain by not coming out of its hole, but again, there are consequences to NOT playing the game. No, again, that’s choosing _how_ to play the game, not _whether_ to play the game. The mouse in RL cannot choose to make the cat disappear. > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > you’re failing to recognize the internal reality that exists within the racers or the players on a football field, for the fans, for the coaches, pit crews, etc. I’m not sure what makes you think I’m failing to recognise anything. How is any of this relevant to the discussion again? > [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > But think about it: people risk blowing up their car or dislocating a shoulder or getting a concussion . . . just to win a game. If it were “just a game”, why would they do this? There may be several reasons for this. One is people in general are really bad at correctly estimating risks and their consequences, and often simply assume nothing will happen to them. But let’s ignore that and consider the cases when it’s not “just a game” _for them_. What does that prove? Where are you trying to get with this? FWIW, let me tell you EvE is not “just a game” _for me_ either… 😄 ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 11:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pvp-vs-bullying/170287/182 "2019-07-02T11:06:37Z")
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