# Qí and the Elder Visionaries **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [June 28, 2017, 9:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724 "2017-06-28T21:09:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Elmund\_Egivand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elmund_egivand/32/11038_2.png) [@Elmund\_Egivand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elmund_Egivand)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 2:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/41 "2017-07-03T02:37:51Z")
Unless you have actually led fleets, unless you can make other starship captains jump the moment you tell them to jump, your rank means absolutely nothing. Show me a single instance of you having led an actual fleet consisting of more than two militia members then we talk. The last time I actually led a fleet back in the TLF, it was more of a point man and a wing man unit and that other guy who joined forces with me did so not because of my rank in the TLF at the time (heck, he was higher ranked than I am), but because of his confidence in my ability to get into and out of trouble with a kill or two. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 4:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/42 "2017-07-03T04:13:03Z")
Even then, her rank would mean nothing. When she can give an order, and have it obeyed upon pain of official disciplinary action and court martial—a real court martial, with the authority to cashier the offender right out of the militia and incarcerate them, not just some bunch of capsuleers posturing about without the State being bound in the slightest by their decision—then that rank has meaning. Until then, it’s just play-acting and costumes. ---
**Author:** ![Halcyon\_Ember](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/halcyon_ember/32/131702_2.png) [@Halcyon\_Ember](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Halcyon_Ember)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 12:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/43 "2017-07-05T12:11:15Z")
Honorary ranks are just that… ---
**Author:** ![Pieter\_Tuulinen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/pieter_tuulinen/32/155371_2.png) [@Pieter\_Tuulinen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Pieter_Tuulinen)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/44 "2017-07-05T16:18:41Z")
Militia Ranks are not their Navy equivalents. Try getting a bunch of Navy ratings on shore leave to salute you, if you don’t believe me. Your position as Capsuleer is what most baseliners will see - not your position as a Strike Commander or a Wing Commander. Whatever cachet that holds for them is more likely directly connected to your wealth, not your Militia Rank. Regarding the “thought experiment” I must own that I am confused. Are we talking about overthrowing the Visionary Elders and coming under the direct rule of the State or are we talking about attempting to overthrow Suvee and declaring full independence? I can’t really comment much on the former, as it is a question of Achuran culture. If the support of Suvee could be gotten, then I suppose you could simply throw open the doors of their deliberation chamber and announce a fait accompli. On the subject of the latter, I can’t say that I see it succeeding. There is absolutely no way to gather the force required to drive off Suvee. They hold ALL the orbital highground and that means that they can simply obliterate any ground army you raise by dropping rocks on it. Yes, there ARE Achuran capsuleers who might rally to the cause, but there are infinitely more Caldari capsuleers who would rise to meet them. It would be a bloodbath - and even if Suvee was overmatched, they would simply apply to the CEP, who have a traditionally poor opinion of treason and insurrection. ---
**Author:** ![kul\_Shaishi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kul_shaishi/32/245841_2.png) [@kul\_Shaishi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/kul_Shaishi)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/45 "2017-07-05T16:34:27Z")
In this case it’s more of Achur overthrowing another Achur Government in favor of a another which in this case is Qí and was more or less an idea that Due to the fact Qí has pre-existing arrangements with Suvee The building has a direct link to suvee in this case but the elder visionaries has official CEP recognition versus Qí which is basically has autonomy but as I recently discovered The elder visionaries has a military but Qí also has a military in the form of the provincial defense unit so this is more of an essence a Civil War then a war for Independence ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 4:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/46 "2017-07-05T16:58:05Z")
Similarly-useful hypothetical thought experiment: How large a crater would a single smuggled large antimatter charge placed into an industrial press leave in the middle of Zhongdu? It seems like there must be more productive and less inherently destructive things we could be talking about? ---
**Author:** ![kul\_Shaishi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kul_shaishi/32/245841_2.png) [@kul\_Shaishi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/kul_Shaishi)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/47 "2017-07-05T17:01:56Z")
Most of the extremely complex Achuran politics consider how many factions are in the elder visionaries and that’s not counting the sub factions ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/48 "2017-07-05T17:36:31Z")
Well … there _are_ a lot of sects represented, but, that doesn’t quite mean nothing can get done. I don’t actually pay too much attention; aside from being an exile, it’s not like we’re actually voting on anything ourselves like the Federals would be. ---
**Author:** ![kul\_Shaishi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kul_shaishi/32/245841_2.png) [@kul\_Shaishi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/kul_Shaishi)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/49 "2017-07-05T18:19:11Z")
It’s actually extremely similar to CEP in lots of ways except the most specs taking up to 11. ---
**Author:** ![Nauplius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nauplius/32/403015_2.png) [@Nauplius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nauplius)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 11:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/50 "2017-07-06T11:04:34Z")
The only thing the Elder Visionaries should receive is slavery and death. For too long have they guided the Achuran people into error: pantheism, atheism, monism, _maya_, soul-denial, and afterlife-denial. God rages against the Elder Visionaries. He hates them with a seething, frothing hatred. As punishment, he sent the Caldari to conquer the Achuran people, but still the Achurans did not turn to God and continued in their errors. But they day will come when the Achuran people will hear the message of the Red God, the message that was taught in the Achuran Missionary Citadel: monotheism, dualism, the immortality of the soul, Paradise, and Hell. The Achuran people will rise up against the Elder Visionaries and burn their books and sacrifice them upon the Altar of God. And then God will give the Achuran people the strength to overthrown their Caldari oppressors, and the Achurans will plant the Red Flag of God at the heart of the Caldari State. Hear now, people of Achur, the words of Nauplius, Prophet of God! **_God has given the Elder Visionaries over to destruction!_** Hunt the Elder Visionaries down, burn their books, burn their monasteries, be as demons of the Pit onto them, for this world is to be as a Hell for the Elder Visionaries. Heap the Elder Visionaries upon the Altar of God and may the rivers of Saisio III be stained Red with their blood! Even so, may the Blood Age come quickly. Amen. Amarr Victor. ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 11:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/51 "2017-07-06T11:39:15Z")
As far as I’m aware the Achur are represented on the CEP mostly by Sukuuvestaa Corporation in much the same way most everyone in the State is represented on the CEP: through the corporate subsidiary chain. City, Arcological, and Orbital district owning corporations lease their land or offer shares to companies ostensibly tied to one Megacorporation or another and by extension they find a ready source of funds for investment and the safety of corporate security forces. The recognized government of the Achur lease their land and offered controlling stakes in city corporations to Sukuuvestaa and in return millions of Achur find prosperity in the investments and infrastructure development projects of the company; find gainful employment across the State; and can become naturalized citizens and represented through the Company on the CEP. However, if you’re seeking to force the CEP as a whole at gunpoint through violence to accede to your demands without recourse to diplomacy then you need look no further in recent history to the Brothers of Freedom movement and all their tens of millions dead as their insurgency was brought to a close within a few months as to the end result when demands are made of corporate authority which leaves no recourse but lawful pacification. ---
**Author:** ![kul\_Shaishi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kul_shaishi/32/245841_2.png) [@kul\_Shaishi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/kul_Shaishi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 1:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/52 "2017-07-06T13:37:56Z")
Have you ever been to Qí ---
**Author:** ![Casserina\_Leshrac](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/casserina_leshrac/32/310487_2.png) [@Casserina\_Leshrac](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Casserina_Leshrac)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/53 "2017-07-06T16:04:32Z")
Funny how the Achurran People in general do not share this vision. In fact the Caldari seem to dote on them as any other member of the State. You are certain about this? Because I see nothing in Scriptures or the Apocryphon that supports this. ---
**Author:** ![Pieter\_Tuulinen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/pieter_tuulinen/32/155371_2.png) [@Pieter\_Tuulinen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Pieter_Tuulinen)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/54 "2017-07-06T16:43:13Z")
Oh right, well… I’ll be the first to admit that I have enough experience with the Achur to know that I don’t know enough to really weigh in on this. Speaking from the perspective of the wider State, I imagine Suvee would prefer a peaceful transition and very limited property damage over an actual Civil War, but I would hope that they would decide which faction to back based on a sober evaluation of the issues. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 4:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/55 "2017-07-07T04:33:19Z")
Drunken evaluations sound more fun, though. ---
**Author:** ![Yuwei\_Sung](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yuwei_sung/32/6490_2.png) [@Yuwei\_Sung](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yuwei_Sung)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 10:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/56 "2017-07-07T10:21:45Z")
While it’s certainly understandable if aspects of miss Shaishi’s message were a _tad_ hard to comprehend, from what I can gather, she seems to be discussing rebelling against the local Achur government - The Elder Visionaries - so that her region can answer to SuVee directly, rather than them. Quite the inverse of rebelling against the CEP! Though, it’s quite funny to see several Caldari seeing the word “rebellion” and going straight to talking of bringing the guns out. Such a passionate people, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 10:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/57 "2017-07-07T10:50:07Z")
> [@Yuwei\_Sung](#): > > While it’s certainly understandable if aspects of miss Shaishi’s message were a tad hard to comprehend, from what I can gather, she seems to be discussing rebelling against the local Achur government - The Elder Visionaries - so that her region can answer to SuVee directly, rather than them. Quite the inverse of rebelling against the CEP! > > Though, it’s quite funny to see several Caldari seeing the word “rebellion” and going straight to talking of bringing the guns out. Such a passionate people, indeed. Local Achur government is a client state of Caldari State, whom we ought to protect. A rebellion against them is still action against Caldari State. We have been living in peace and this “miss Shaishi” just tries to stir trouble and fight between Caldari people. Her anti-Caldari replies were leaking in several other topics, and it is impervious that we terminate all dissenting attempts like her on the spot. Please, move on. ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 10:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/58 "2017-07-07T10:58:05Z")
> [@Yuwei\_Sung](#): > > While it’s certainly understandable if aspects of miss Shaishi’s message were a tad hard to comprehend, from what I can gather, she seems to be discussing rebelling against the local Achur government - The Elder Visionaries - so that her region can answer to SuVee directly, rather than them. Quite the inverse of rebelling against the CEP! > > Though, it’s quite funny to see several Caldari seeing the word “rebellion” and going straight to talking of bringing the guns out. Such a passionate people, indeed If one constructs a message difficult to comprehend then naturally a response will be made upon what is interpreted to have been said. As for the latter, while I certainly have my passions I’m a humanitarian working in the Federation so there is little chance of my bringing my own guns out. However, the CEP and individual Megacorporations can and do act against those they deem insurrectionists – that’s just a matter of historical record, whether Brothers of Freedom or at the forge in Piak. Lastly, I fail to see what benefit there exists in instigating either rebellion or coup against the Elder Visionaries except plenty of unnecessary dead when other options exist in my mind such as negotiating with Suvee or other corporations unilaterally. > [@kul\_Shaishi](#): > > Have you ever been to Qí No, I have not, I have had very little do with the Achura in Saisio proper. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/59 "2017-07-07T14:46:14Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > and it is impervious that we terminate I think you mean ‘imperative’. ---
**Author:** ![Halcyon\_Ember](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/halcyon_ember/32/131702_2.png) [@Halcyon\_Ember](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Halcyon_Ember)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 9:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724/60 "2017-07-12T09:58:36Z")
I don’t know, she seems to be impervious to Diana’s attempts to terminate her [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/qi-and-the-elder-visionaries/7724.md?page=2)