# Risk vs Reward ninja mining **URL:** \ **Category:** Crime & Punishment\ **Created:** [September 8, 2019, 12:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434 "2019-09-08T00:30:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 7:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/282 "2019-09-10T07:11:13Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Good God I miss the days of “Here is your noob ship now pfuck off.” Yes…I am quoting myself because I’m a pretentious jackass… While I miss those “halcyon” days. I get why CCP is worried about player retention. I get it. Part of me says, “Hey, just go back to ‘here is your noob ship now pfuck off’.” But maybe times have changed. Maybe players are different with many different games pulling at them. But I can’t help that coddling players is not the solution. Why not? Because guys like me and others will see that and figure a way to min-max the ■■■■ out of it and use it to our advantage much more so than some new player still figuring stuff out and with a handful of ISK vs. my tens of billions or other players with hundreds of billions. In the end the game will still look “rigged”. Yeah, maybe these new players have a leg up, but us veterans will have not just a leg up but legs up…dozens of legs up. We are past masters at min-maxing the ■■■■ out of this stuff. Selection has produced long term players who look at patch notes and look for any and all angles. And then passing it along to alliance and coalition buddies…it creates an unbalanced playing field when the goddamned mother pfucking intent was to create a level playing field. In fact…I’d argue that when looking at mechanics, balance, etc. in EVE Online one should keep in mind the principle of generality. That whatever you do some subset of players, it will also be there for all other players. Those players will also look at that change and try to figure out the best response too said change. Basically, if you are going to create a benefit for players in group A realize that players in all other groups other than A will be able to use it to their advantage too. If you aren’t thinking in these terms you are doing it wrong. Edit: Yes, some of you might be thinking of Malcanis’ Law. Very good. But Malcanis’ Law is, IMO, a special case of the principle of generality. The principle of generality is that if you do X for group Y then you should do it for all other groups. In EVE Online, the principle of generality is the default. There is almost no way for the Devs to implement a change and exclude other groups. So if you implement some benefit for miners then all other player can see it and try to use it to their advantage. Since there are also players with lots of SP and wealth it stands to reason that these older players can leverage these changes to their advantage to a greater extent than new players. This can actually exacerbate the problem of power, wealth, SP disparities between new and older players while the actual intent was to reduce those disparities. We have to remember that the game is a complex system and that players will be looking for any and all advantages. As such they won’t just keep doing what they were doing before a change in mechanics. New and old players, especially older players, will note the changes and respond to them. The “linear” type of thinking many engage in is not only wrong it is potentially harmful. ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 7:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/283 "2019-09-10T07:20:29Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > But maybe times have changed. Maybe players are different with many different games pulling at them. I too feel that but here is the question I always come back to: If I love EVE and want it saved then CCP needs to heavily cater to its new audience but this means I wont be happy and will need to piss-off; which is the lessor of the two evils? Letting EVE flounder in “hard” mode or make it easier but alienate me and most of the old guard that’s left. …and the follow-up; if CCP changed it drastically, would is still be EVE? …all pointless of course but you have to think about something while on the john. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 7:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/284 "2019-09-10T07:26:41Z")
> [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > If I love EVE and want it saved then CCP needs to heavily cater to its new audience but this means I wont be happy and will need to piss-off; which is the lessor of the two evils There is the conundrum… 1. Cater to the new players…but… 2. Lose the older players who are the backbone of subscribers. It is indeed a tough challenge for CCP, to be sure. And I don’t envy them their task. But then again being innovative and entrepreneurial has never been easy…and they aren’t paying me to think in such terms. So I don’t know. > [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > …all pointless of course but you have to think about something while on the john. Indeed and it beats the heck out of current events and the news. ---
**Author:** ![Solecist\_Project](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solecist_project/32/479741_2.png) [@Solecist\_Project](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solecist_Project)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 7:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/285 "2019-09-10T07:27:25Z")
Excuse me, but what about the rookies who will go suspect and get killed by the bears who can’t shoot anyone else anyway? I’m not seeing how this idea is beneficial for anyone but … uh … someone like me, or Xuixen, actually. Devil’s Advocate. : p ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 7:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/286 "2019-09-10T07:28:18Z")
> [@Solecist\_Project](#): > > Excuse me, but what about the rookies who will go suspect and get killed by the bears who can’t shoot anyone else anyway? f’em they’ll sub longer anyways, right? 😜 ---
**Author:** ![Solecist\_Project](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solecist_project/32/479741_2.png) [@Solecist\_Project](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solecist_Project)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 7:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/287 "2019-09-10T07:30:08Z")
Hey, I’m asking for a serious answer! lol ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 7:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/288 "2019-09-10T07:38:50Z")
Serious answer…IDK. My feeling is that I want any and all new players to stay and learn to love the game I’ve been playing for over a decade. But then again I acknowledge that maybe I’m…weird. So is shooting such new players good? I don’t know, maybe. I can also see the downside…you warp in see see a juicy asteroid belt start mining and get blasted and think, “F’ this game!” How do we solve that issue…no idea. We can argue about pop ups or some other mechanic, but it seems like CCP does realize that getting players together is probably the best way to ensure long time play. I don’t log in because I can rat in some NS system, but because I like listening to the banter on fleet chats, listening to the FC tell us why we had to flash form, knowing I am part of something more than just how much ISK is in my wallet, etc. But maybe that isn’t for everyone. I don’t want the guy who wants to peacefully mine low end ores in HS while enjoying Netflix/Amazon to feel he is not welcome. I don’t want casual players to feel they are scum. Hey…whatever floats your boat. But at the same time, don’t run around crying for special dispensations either. Yeah, sure I live in NS, I do PvP and such, but I want more players not less…players of all types. Just understand how the game works and accept it…or if you can’t move on to a game that is more your speed. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 7:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/289 "2019-09-10T07:40:30Z")
Anyhow…back to Stranger Things… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Solecist\_Project](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solecist_project/32/479741_2.png) [@Solecist\_Project](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solecist_Project)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 7:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/290 "2019-09-10T07:57:07Z")
That’s a great answer! I like the whole idea, actually. Just to make sure people understand me. I think it’s a great idea that fits highsec perfectly. When you want to “own” moon ore in highsec, then you have to give up the CONCORD umbrella at least partly by giving up your relative wardec immunity, which you gain by having your structure in a holding corp. All this idea needs is some kind of adjustment for people who believe they can just jump in and out of their corps to mine their ore without getting suspect flagged. @Haulie_Berry I think you should make a thread about this in the Features&Suggestions forum. Your thoughtfulness is exemplary! I can’t actually find a flaw in it. There will be moons “owned” by people with teeth and naturally there will of course be moons “owned” by people who lack them, where rookies can mine without worrying about the suspect flag. ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 7:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/291 "2019-09-10T07:59:04Z")
> [@Solecist\_Project](#): > > I think you should make a thread about this in the Features&Suggestions forum. Yep…everyone can/will also try to signal boost it (or whatever the kids are saying these days) It’s truly a very good idea… ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 8:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/292 "2019-09-10T08:53:06Z")
Or make the chunks explode when theyre mined. I liked that idea. Whose was that again? ---
**Author:** ![Punctator](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/punctator/32/357072_2.png) [@Punctator](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Punctator)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 9:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/293 "2019-09-10T09:24:54Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > He perceives an issue and may complain about it. But it doesn’t necessarily mean there is one. It doesn’t mean we all agree. The motif was different - from time to time people start a thread of this kind and immediately their threads are closed and the head cut off by a moderator. A series of questions creates a space for speech and the moderator can’t close it because it would mean that you can’t even ask anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 9:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/294 "2019-09-10T09:28:36Z")
> [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > What if the (minor) complexity of highsec moon mining is there thing but is not viable due to all the free loaders taking the best ore? > > Back in the day Eve was based very much on risk vs reward, with exceptions of course like incursions. Now CCP is saying to all highsec dwellers - you can spend billions setting up a moon mining structure, others can take your ore and there is nothing you can do about it - The expectation of profiting from your investment in highsec is not allowed. It’s worth it if the corp knows what it’s doing, and ninja miners don’t really cut into profits all that much. More than once I’ve scouted an Athanor with a chunk ready to pop, and while I was sitting there waiting for the drill to autofire (hadn’t ever seen a chunk blow before), someone logged into the Athanor, blew the chunk, and within minutes their fleet warped in and began clearing the rocks. The _best_ corps pulled just enough for their fleet to mine in \<1 hour. I promise you my 4 miners didn’t stop them from making billions. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > There is a disease in this game and it is the whiny NUBs who do not realize that you are responsible for your own actions. Do something dumb and somebody notices they’ll push in your poop. When that happens you should not come the forums like a b!tch you should HTFU and look at what you did wrong and not do it again. Yes these sorts of players are really dragging the game down. They started pouring into EVE back in 2012-2013 when CCP tried to create “mass appeal”. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 9:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/295 "2019-09-10T09:45:27Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Then move to your best next alternative. Whining, crying and stomping your feet is rather childish. See now that’s funny, the ONLY ones whining and crying in this thread are those who want to reap the benefits of someone else’s work without repercussion. I’m not hopeful CCP will even bother re-looking at highsec moon mining (or moon mining in general, it is currently BROKEN), they haven’t been able to complete one task in years that didn’t create issues down the line (despite numerous well written threads, articles, round tables, etc from players) - Highsec moon mining is likely never to be a priority.,. ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 9:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/296 "2019-09-10T09:54:47Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Edit: Yes, some of you might be thinking of Malcanis’ Law. Very good. But Malcanis’ Law is, IMO, a special case of the principle of generality. The principle of generality is that if you do X for group Y then you should do it for all other groups. In EVE Online, the principle of generality is the default. There is almost no way for the Devs to implement a change and exclude other groups. It’s literally from the Bible. Matthew 13:12 - > Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 10:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/297 "2019-09-10T10:02:30Z")
> [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > reap the benefits of someone else’s work without repercussion. Like krabs 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Natashalynn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/natashalynn/32/142458_2.png) [@Natashalynn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Natashalynn)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 10:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/298 "2019-09-10T10:06:49Z")
Not sure why so many in HS put moon refineries up in the first place if they don’t have a coordinated crew . Agree on times with dates that everyone can show up to clear the field in a reasonable time. If things change and things slow down, then put the refinery offline and take it down. Seems kinda straight forward to me, but from what I have seen, this is clearly not the case. There is no way I am going to help some dude mine his field or guard it for free either. Take it down if you can’t support it or make friends. System now is pretty clear, and the war dec idea I also like. If you want to invest in structures, you would like to imagine ppl thinking ahead before even investing? Even if its small time its obviously meant to introduce team play as an industrial aspect of the more broad spectrum in null. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 10:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/299 "2019-09-10T10:43:17Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > You are not being serious, structures are really weak in hisec. But you aren’t gonna put a mining party in front of one as long as the guns are online. But they are online until destroyed yes? Well what happens to the moon belt in that time? What happens to the belt if the athanor is destroyed? ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 11:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/300 "2019-09-10T11:19:56Z")
I would think that a group of Orca’s doing RR and properly fit would have no problem with defanging fighters and dealing with the damage. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 11:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434/301 "2019-09-10T11:24:18Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Or make the chunks explode when theyre mined. I tried to > [@\[mining change\] mining makes roids take damage, then split in smaller parts](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/mining-change-mining-makes-roids-take-damage-then-split-in-smaller-parts/91265): > > Sorry for the text wall. I tried to make it fun but it may look like a stupid wall. What’s wrong at present time Why I don’t like present mining : our turrets don’t deal damage. No feeling of the asteroid going to hull, no need to OL the guns for that last part of damage, it’s all or nothing either the roid is finished at the end of the cycle or nothing. The ■■■■ ? I’ve been shooting it, it SHOULD take DMG !!! no tracking involved. The asteroid has no way to escape the laser, even if asteroid… > [@Punctator](#): > > A series of questions creates a space for speech and the moderator can’t close it because it would mean that you can’t even ask anymore. That’s literally what the band of kids is doing : They keep claiming that nothing can be wrong in the game, that any opinion that claims an issue is wrong. They should focus Peckos advice : > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > now pfuck off. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > no problem with defanging fighters besides locking time. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434.md?page=13) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/risk-vs-reward-ninja-mining/188434.md?page=15)