# Road to Fanfest - Structure Updates **URL:** \ **Category:** Balance and Mechanics\ **Tags:** feedback, official, structure\ **Created:** [March 21, 2022, 7:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743 "2022-03-21T19:07:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Lauralite\_Anne\_Brezia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lauralite_anne_brezia/32/380065_2.png) [@Lauralite\_Anne\_Brezia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lauralite_Anne_Brezia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 12:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/119 "2022-03-23T12:51:29Z")
also to clarify my position @Brisc_Rubal , as a smaller entity player, I want to be able to considerably bloody the nose of someone bigger than me if they’re being lazy or careless, but don’t actually expect to be able to _win_ against a concerted siege by a larger group. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 1:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/120 "2022-03-23T13:08:38Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > What’s that? Counterplay? OMG! (Seriously, not looking to be a jerk here, just making light of it a bit, but you’re describing exactly how it should work: Challenge → counter → counter-counter) I have nothing against counterplay, but ‘N+1’ is already a counter for a lot of things even if CCP designs mechanics not specifically to be countered with larger numbers. Bringing more ships doesn’t need extra encouragement to be a viable counterplay option. As such, a mechanic that deals damage inversely proportional to the number of enemy ships is not a mechanic that encourages new interesting forms of counterplay - people are already using that form of counterplay if they can. What about the opposite? A PDS that deals damage proportional to the amount of enemy ships? Doesn’t hurt single frigates much, but can deal serious damage to any frigate fleet that lands on the structure when the PDS is off cooldown? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 1:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/121 "2022-03-23T13:14:19Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > Doesn’t hurt single frigates much, but can deal serious damage to any frigate fleet that lands on the structure when the PDS is off cooldown? Single frigates have the problem of not being able to hit the threashold to pause the timer. Shoot all day, you’ll never ref it. > [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > Bringing more ships doesn’t need extra encouragement to be a viable counterplay option It’s less about ‘bringing more ships’ and more about ‘putting more ships extremely close together’. Most fights in EVE are already like Ron White getting tossed out of a bar: ‘I didn’t know how many of them it’d take to kick my ass… but I knew how many they were gonna use’. You bring everyone you can. If you have more guys at home, you bring them, too. But once you get there… your fleet remains close enough to act cohesively, but (especially in structure bashes) spreads out a bit to minimize the risk from a group of 5-10 bombers. Force them closer together, you make them bomber bait. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 1:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/122 "2022-03-23T13:21:23Z")
They’re tiny fast frigates, not really the best bomber targets. I’m not sure CCP needs to design a mechanic that asks specifically to be countered by bringing more ships, in a game where bringing more ships is generally the answer to most problems, just to make a mediocre bomber target. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 1:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/123 "2022-03-23T13:28:02Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > They’re tiny fast frigates, not really the best bomber targets. That also means they’re vulnerable to missile fire, and a smaller defense force of bigger ships. That’s if that fleet of frigates can even hit the damage threshold to keep it paused. If they can, that’s a sizeable fleet, and a defender who can’t muster a defense fleet in that situation wasn’t going to save his structure anyway. If that many frigates aren’t able to do the job, they’d just bring HACs, or Leshaks. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 1:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/124 "2022-03-23T13:36:15Z")
That still isn’t a good reason to implement a mechanic that specifically asks to be countered by bringing more ships, as bringing more ships generally is the answer to most problems and really does not need more targeted stimulation on top of that. > [@Arrendis](#): > > That’s if that fleet of frigates can even hit the damage threshold to keep it paused. If they can, that’s a sizeable fleet, It really doesn’t take that many frigates to pause a structure. Bombers with Rage ammo deal a lot of damage, you know? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 1:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/125 "2022-03-23T13:44:37Z")
Because it doesn’t ask to be countered by bringing more ships. Bringing more ships is an _inevitability_. It’s countered by making the ships that will already be on the field more vulnerable to other forms of attack. Nobody will say ‘well, we were _gonna_ only bring 10 guys, but the fort’s got a PDS, so let’s bring 20’. They’re just gonna bring 20, whether it’s a fort with a PDS or an Astra that can’t ever hope to mount one. Hell, if they can, they’ll bring 50. > [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > It really doesn’t take that many frigates to pause a structure. Bombers with Rage ammo deal a lot of damage, you know? Why the _hell_ are your bombers in PDS range of a Fortizar? They’ve got 100+ km range w/those Rage Torpedoes. Bombers are literally the thing that doesn’t worry about _crap_ from this mechanic, because they’re never going to be touched by it. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 1:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/126 "2022-03-23T13:46:33Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Because it doesn’t ask to be countered by bringing more ships. If the damage taken is a flat amount divided by all ships in the fleet, it literally asks to be countered by bringing more ships. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 1:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/127 "2022-03-23T13:47:33Z")
Again, no. There will already be as many ships as possible present, regardless of this mechanic’s existence. This mechanic existing will not encourage people to do the thing they will _already_ be doing. They’ll already be doing it. It’s like saying ‘getting pollution out of the air will encourage people to breathe’. People will already be breathing. They don’t need encouragement there. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 1:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/128 "2022-03-23T13:50:12Z")
Right now there is no incentive to multibox spare noncombat alts in the same fleet. Your suggestion would encourage people to do so. Again, we do not need mechanics that specifically ask for a bigger number of ships as a counter. A bigger number of ships already is used as counter to most problems, the game really doesn’t need additional mechanics targeted to encourage bigger fleets like ‘bring X+ ships to ignore this attack’. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 1:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/129 "2022-03-23T13:52:36Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > Riggt now there is no incentive to multibox nonco.bat alts in the same fleet. There isn’t? What the hell structure bashes are _you_ doing? 🙂 If you can’t multibox combat alts in a fight, you don’t bring them to a structure bash, because it might turn into a fight. If you can, you already do. Let’s say you have the potential to bring 100 ships to kill a structure. If it’s a fort w/this pds, you bring 100. If it’s an Astra with no PDS, you bring… 100. If it’s a POCO, you bring… 100. (Especially if it’s a POCO. No damage cap! More people == faster killin’,) The PDS doesn’t factor into ‘how many do you bring?’. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 1:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/130 "2022-03-23T13:57:15Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Let’s say you have the potential to bring 100 ships to kill a structure. If it’s a fort w/this pds, you bring 100. If it’s an Astra with no PDS, you bring… 100. If it’s a POCO, you bring… 100. (Especially if it’s a POCO. No damage cap! More people == faster killin’,) Yes, but imagine, just imagine, you’re not in one of the biggest alliances in the game and cannot get 100 people to bash a structure and therefore cannot ignore the PDS, because the PDS is lethal for fleets with smaller amounts of people. What then? Should they just give up and join one of the big coalitions instead? Again, PDS damage inversely proportional to amount of pilots is silly. The game does not need even more reasons for players to group up, that already happens naturally. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 1:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/131 "2022-03-23T13:59:18Z")
Well wait a minute, though. Wasn’t your whole argument that ‘this will just mean people will bring more guys’? No, if I’m in a smaller group… and this is gonna seem shocking, I know… _I stay out of PDS range_. Lookit that, the whole mechanic is a non-issue because my medium artillery shoots out to 50km. ---
**Author:** ![Induce\_Deadline](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/induce_deadline/32/418955_2.png) [@Induce\_Deadline](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Induce_Deadline)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 1:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/132 "2022-03-23T13:59:35Z")
All for structure changes… But I just want something to do in between fleets in null sec, with mining and ratting reduced/diminished, there’s just nothing to do, particularly on cap accounts. I’m not going down the creating a dedicated high sec pilot/account route, I don’t want to run Incursions, Burners, Abyssals, I want to play in null. Want to get me excited? Revert DBS, increase anom respawns back to what they were, fix mining anoms. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 2:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/133 "2022-03-23T14:00:52Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > No, if I’m in a smaller group… and this is gonna seem shocking, I know… _I stay out of PDS range_. Lookit that, the whole mechanic is a non-issue because my medium artillery shoots out to 50km. Ah yes, small groups should stay out of PDS range while big groups can ignore it. Great game design. Having a bigger group is already an advantage by itself, it doesn’t need even more help from game mechanics. ---
**Author:** ![Taarka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/taarka/32/357457_2.png) [@Taarka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Taarka)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 2:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/134 "2022-03-23T14:02:21Z")
I remember when Goons spammed Caldari towers with lots of shield hardeners and just enough ECM to keep attackers from going AFK and then refused to engage. All to break BoB’s will to login. It worked. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 2:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/135 "2022-03-23T14:03:23Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > Ah yes, small groups should stay out of PDS range while big groups can ignore it. Great game design. Yes, big groups ‘ignore’ it… by bunching up and being bomber bait. Which means small numbers of defenders can do massive damage to large numbers of people from big groups. It literally encourages a scenario where N+1 just means more things vulnerable and dying, because you’re bunching them up where bomber AoE (or even the structure’s bomb launcher) can hurt _more_ of them. ---
**Author:** ![Lauralite\_Anne\_Brezia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lauralite_anne_brezia/32/380065_2.png) [@Lauralite\_Anne\_Brezia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lauralite_Anne_Brezia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 2:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/136 "2022-03-23T14:12:33Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > you’re bunching them up where bomber AoE a bit less applicable in lowsec, but I get where you’re aiming with this and somewhat agree. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 2:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/137 "2022-03-23T14:17:49Z")
> [@Lauralite\_Anne\_Brezia](#): > > a bit less applicable in lowsec, Fair enough, but then, he’s talking about a frigate fleet, bunched up, _sitting still_… so there’s plenty of ways to kill that. ---
**Author:** ![Lauralite\_Anne\_Brezia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lauralite_anne_brezia/32/380065_2.png) [@Lauralite\_Anne\_Brezia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lauralite_Anne_Brezia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 2:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743/138 "2022-03-23T14:18:45Z")
I could think of a few easily enough [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743.md?page=5) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/road-to-fanfest-structure-updates/354743.md?page=7)