# Rookie Griefing Policy was updated Monday **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [July 14, 2017, 5:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258 "2017-07-14T05:43:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Rosov\_Aulmais](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rosov_aulmais/32/168511_2.png) [@Rosov\_Aulmais](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rosov_Aulmais)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 8:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/227 "2017-09-15T08:36:27Z")
I haven’t got response from my last question, and I’ll assume you fail the entire arc if you fail one mission, which you’ll fail if you lose your mission item. You can still try find the mission item in contracts in case you lose it, but there is no guarantee there will be such contract. The suggested issue about the change is that unlike starter systems which are well-defined, the SOE Epic Arc item can just appear in any ship for whatever reasons. The change has limited its scope to players 30 days old or less and in mission sites and systems associated with the arc. It’ll (theoratically) be a issue if you are a ganker/wardeccer and kills everything you can without checking the player. I did noticed some players frequently killing noobs like this guy, though it is about 6 months before CCP made this change. > **[Elisa Fur | Character](https://zkillboard.com/character/96290758/)** > > Elisa Fur: 394 ships destroyed and 142 ships lost. According to the rules they will warn you first in case you are killing ships carrying those items very often, but **how often will that ever happen to such a degree that CCP goes after you**? Let’s look at the Data. > **There are 26 missions in the SOE Epic arc that requires you to transport stuff.** > > Mission 3:Of Interest-Strange Datacore > Mission 4:Retrieving Red-Red > Mission 6:Jet-Canning a Jantior-Nebben Centrien, Janitor > Mission 7:Chivying a Chef-Chef Aubrei Azil > Mission 8:Delivering a Doctor-A Lot of Money/Doctor Luija Elban > Mission 9:Engineering a Rescue-Engineer Tahaki Karin > Mission 11:Studying the Scene-Corrupted Drone Components > Mission 12:Rendering Assistance-Antibiotics\* an item that is also a commodity so it can stil be obtained by other means. > Mission 14:Data Retrieval-Dr. Castille’s Data Core (Property of CreoDron) > Mission 17:House of Records-Hidden Data Sheets > Mission 19:Economy Under Threat-Farming Supplies > Mission 22:Royal Jelly-FR Personnel > Mission 23:Nature Pictures-Encoded Data Transmission > Mission 24a:Tracking the Queen (Part 1)-Corin Risia > Mission 25a:Tracking the Queen (Part 2)-Corin Risia > Mission 26a:Tracking the Queen (Part 3)-Drone Tracking Data > Mission 24b:Bag of Blood-Wolf Burgan’s DNA > Mission 25b:Planting the Body-Wolf Burgan’s Body Double > Mission 36:A Matter of Decorum-Mizara’s Doll > Mission 38:Recovery-Mysterious Statue > Mission 39:Of Quiet Night Long Past-Strange Coded Document > Mission 43:A Stranger’s Face-Altered Identity Records > Mission 44:The Sisters and the Spy-Tahaki Karin > Mission 45:Chasing Shadows-Kritsan Parthus > Mission 49:Our Man Dagan-Dagan > Mission 50:Dal Segno al Fine-Dagan Now, let 's take a look at the zkillboard records containing these items in the past 9 months,which is on or after 12/16/2016 to today, 9/15/2017 (or at most 50 entries as Zkillboard shows) > **Raw Data:** > > Killed by NPC/Killed by non suicide gankers/Killed by suicide gankers > Strange Datacore:1,35,1 > Red:1,21,0 > Nebben Centrien, Janitor:3,2,1 > Chef Aubrei Azil:4,4,0 > A Lot of Money:3,25,0 > Doctor Luija Elban:2,3,0 > Engineer Tahaki Karin:3,4,0 > Corrupted Drone Components:3,0,0 > Dr. Castille’s Data Core (Property of CreoDron):1,11,0 > Hidden Data Sheets:4,24,3 > Farming Supplies:4,10,0 > FR Personnel:0,2,0 > Encoded Data Transmission:8,15,0 > Corin Risia:36,9,0 > Drone Tracking Data:33,17,0 > Wolf Burgan’s DNA:0,1,0 > Wolf Burgan’s Body Double:6,5,0 > Mizara’s Doll:1,1,0 > Mysterious Statue:1,1,0 > Strange Coded Document:0,0,0 > Altered Identity Records:5,25,0 > Tahaki Karin:0,2,0 > Kritsan Parthus:1,5,0 > Dagan:0,3,0 Total:120 killed by NPC,225 killed by non suicide ganker,5 killed by suicide ganker in last 9 months. And many kills are in systems not related to the arc at all, or the character is not noob so it does not qualify for griefing. From the data I’d say legal agressors(low-sec, wardec, faction war or suspect baiting) contribute to most of SOE runner deaths while suicide gankers are negligible. I’d say the change wouldn’t affect most of the players except those who are very very obsessed with killing noobs. ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 9:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/228 "2017-09-15T09:32:27Z")
> [@Rosov\_Aulmais](#): > > I haven’t got response from my last question, and I’ll assume you fail the entire arc if you fail one mission, which you’ll fail if you lose your mission item. You can still try find the mission item in contracts in case you lose it, but there is no guarantee there will be such contract. I am almost certain that a GM will reset a SOE starter arc mission for you, if you are a new player. They have no problem doing so for the career agents, and given they treat this as an extension of that now, I bet a petition would solve the issue. Also, just waiting for the next downtime often will reset a mission on its own, and I believe that is the case for the SOE missions (but a new player might not know this of course). Honestly though, Eve is a full-time, competitive open-world PvP game. I think almost everyone is cool with new players receiving some protection and even GM reimbursements if they are unlucky or make a mistake in the first mission arc, but you can’t bubble-wrap them forever or treat them as porcelain figurines too delicate to play with. They have to get into our shared sandbox and sometimes that means they will explode like all of us do from time-to-time. Every time CCP looks at this issue, and various interests have asked them to repeatedly, they find that “rookie griefing” has no impact on new player retention just like your numbers show. This isn’t a problem worth worrying about. There are plenty of more significant issues facing new players than “rookie griefing”. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/229 "2017-09-15T21:06:01Z")
Just to correct, they’ve only looked once, and they didn’t do a real look even then at the effects. Because they didn’t actually isolate the numbers they pulled out. They just said that people that stay more than a month tended to be slightly more likely to have had a PvP encounter than people who quit under a month. With the number of possible causes behind that you would have to look a lot deeper to actually isolate causes. @Rosov_Aulmais Consider how many non suicide ganks will be a bait can on someone too new to know better. Suspect baiting or getting them to can flip unknowingly is just as griefing as deliberately suicide ganking them. Similarly though, I’m not claiming ganking is a general issue, and it is one that newbies should be introduced to in an appropriate manner (Not in one that disrupts their gameplay the first time ideally). Though griefing is quite different from ganking and is & always has been banned when you do it to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/230 "2017-09-15T21:31:56Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > They just said that people that stay more than a month tended to be slightly more likely to have had a PvP encounter than people who quit under a month. Yes they did. Exactly as I said: there is no evidence that “rookie griefing” is a thing that is driving new players away. Yes, I’ll grant you that says nothing about 6-month old players, or 5 year players who self-identify as “new” who quite the game after losing an overloaded freighter, but retention of real new players is not only not harmed at all by PvP encounters, there is a statistical correlation with more players staying with the game who experience player interactions like PvP of all sorts. Make of that what you will, but the idea that “rookie griefing” is a thing any of us should worry about has [thoroughly been debunked](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/message/5504221/#post5504221). Let’s stop crying wolf about “griefing” and work together to find and lessen the more serious impediments for getting people into the game. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/231 "2017-09-15T21:32:54Z")
Uh, no. ‘PVP encounters’ is a very different thing from griefing. And griefing should always be considered a very very bad thing. Be it to rookies or anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/232 "2017-09-15T21:41:41Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Uh, no. ‘PVP encounters’ is a very different thing from griefing. And griefing should always be considered a very very bad thing. Be it to rookies or anyone. Indeed. “Griefing” in the EULA sense is verboten and is and should punished. “Griefing” in the non-consensual PvP sense is statistically correlated with increased new player retention and probably thus should be encourage. One is good for new player retention (let’s interact in a game about shooting spaceships!), and one is prohibited from the game by fiat entirely. They are two different things. I think I was clear in what sense I was using but if you want to be pedantic, then yes, sanctioned PvP encounters (ganking/wars/other “legal” PvP) are what I was referring to, not “rookie griefing” (abusing new players in a rookie system) that is prohibited by CCP. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 9:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/233 "2017-09-15T21:48:31Z")
> [@yellow\_parasol](#): > > Socratic! That was my line you wretched egger. For those unfamiliar with Socratic, [The Socratic Files](http://zedrikcayne.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/socratic-filesthe-ultimate-punishment.html) are an amusing read, a tale of comeuppance so good it made one of the Dick Moves in Gaming articles over on Cracked ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 10:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/234 "2017-09-15T22:01:37Z")
Again, ganking is not correlated with an increase in player retention. CCP’s numbers they quoted do not mean anything of the sort and should never be claimed to do so. Doing so is a perfect example of the ‘lies, damn lies & statistics’ quote, since it’s a blatant misuse of the statistics that means nothing of the sort. Interaction being good for player retention is the aspect they did establish as being relevant. And yes, by all means, I promote interaction with people, which is why I think the mechanics behind ganking are bad because ganking in of itself doesn’t provide meaningful interaction because it’s over so fast. If you (or someone else) then go on to have a good conversation with the person it can, but that conversation is the meaningful interaction, not the gank, and should not be regarded as needing to be tied to PVP interactions. ---
**Author:** ![yellow\_parasol](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yellow_parasol/32/10455_2.png) [@yellow\_parasol](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/yellow_parasol)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/235 "2017-09-15T22:03:37Z")
is it true that he got unbanned, because his claim that he’s raising attention actually got proven as correct? i know that from him, it’s been a long while, though. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/236 "2017-09-15T22:08:02Z")
AFAIK his ban was lifted, pretty sure he was posting on the old forums in the last 6 or 7 months; he made a huge fuss about his ban for months on CCP’s facebook page last year, for which he got mercilessly ribbed by those of who know what he was doing in Arnon. ---
**Author:** ![yellow\_parasol](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yellow_parasol/32/10455_2.png) [@yellow\_parasol](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/yellow_parasol)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/237 "2017-09-15T22:10:39Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Again, ganking is not correlated with an increase in player retention. CCP’s numbers they quoted do not mean anything of the sort and should never be claimed to do so. You, Sir, are ignorant. You are ignorant of … - the game’s history. - the game’s old playerbase. - the game’s old culture. - the proven method of recruiting by shooting. - how the game had any retention in the first place. - the effects of adrenaline. You do not understand what you are actually talking about. You think you do, but you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/238 "2017-09-15T22:11:49Z")
Confirmation bias. enough said. ---
**Author:** ![yellow\_parasol](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yellow_parasol/32/10455_2.png) [@yellow\_parasol](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/yellow_parasol)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/239 "2017-09-15T22:12:38Z")
yes. i asked if you knew the reason why he got unbanned. his claim was that they banned him unfairly, because he did not hurt retention at all, and ccp eventually proved that this was correct, and therefore unbanned him. again, his words, quite a long while ago. ---
**Author:** ![yellow\_parasol](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yellow_parasol/32/10455_2.png) [@yellow\_parasol](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/yellow_parasol)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 10:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/240 "2017-09-15T22:14:25Z")
Dunning Kruger and not the necessary self reflection to realize. You have no ground to speak on. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 10:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/241 "2017-09-15T22:17:02Z")
Ah I misread that, nope I have no idea as to why it was lifted; although tbh that sounds like something he would say anyway, just to stroke his own ego. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/242 "2017-09-15T22:21:47Z")
The point you have to resort to calling other people dumb to try and win an argument is pretty much the point you’ve lost it. I’m well aware of the history of the game, and the player base, and how they tend to only see things from the view point of their own little part of it. This doesn’t mean that they are dumb, it just means they are considering one view. The claims that ‘nerfing ganking’ have hurt CCP’s player numbers are equally as lacking in any kind of evidence as the claims that ganking has hurt the player numbers, and equally based on a single view point. Meaningful interactions is the key. ---
**Author:** ![Galaxy\_Pig](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/galaxy_pig/32/374625_2.png) [@Galaxy\_Pig](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Galaxy_Pig)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/243 "2017-09-15T22:39:52Z")
🤨 What was he doing in Arnon? When I talk to that dude all I get from him is a crazy convoluted alternative history of EVE events. Not sure if he made it up or really perceives reality that way… ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 10:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/244 "2017-09-15T22:45:35Z")
hanging in local, pretending to be helpful and fleeting up with newbies running the SoE mission; killed everything in sight, took all the loot and then offer to sell it back at inflated prices and generally being an asshole to the newbies. ---
**Author:** ![Galaxy\_Pig](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/galaxy_pig/32/374625_2.png) [@Galaxy\_Pig](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Galaxy_Pig)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/245 "2017-09-16T00:25:06Z")
Wow. And he calls me a griefer… ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 5:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258/246 "2017-09-16T05:58:30Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Again, ganking is not correlated with an increase in player retention. CCP’s numbers they quoted do not mean anything of the sort and should never be claimed to do so. Yes they are correlated. CCP Rise clearly said that those that have a higher rate of explosions (including ganking) had a higher rate of retention. That is a correlation. We can debate until the cows come home what that correlation means, but that correlation is a statistical fact calculated using data and math and was explicitly told to us in that presentation by CCP. You should stop falsely denying that. It isn’t helping the discussion. We are all entitled to our opinion, but not our own set of facts. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258.md?page=11) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/rookie-griefing-policy-was-updated-monday/10258.md?page=13)