# Running for CSM next year: **URL:** \ **Category:** CSM Campaigns\ **Created:** [September 21, 2018, 10:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072 "2018-09-21T10:35:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 3:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/300 "2018-09-24T15:37:31Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I’m not trolling the thread. I’m having a conversation with you. You are trolling as a seated CSM. This has no bearing as a conversation. [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/7/e/6/7e632de1ec5289ed2e67a772702f5e8126d566e0.jpeg "Elect Brisc Rubal to CSM XIII") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EBAKyoPkMM) ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/301 "2018-09-24T15:38:58Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > You compared 1-3hrs of contact via internet, with 5-8hrs per a period of days at HQ. > > I dont think it has been demonstrated the latter is more efficient, or more productive, than an equivalent amount of hours via internet. > > The CSM itself, much less on location summits by it, are not indispensible, or immutable. There are other ways to get player feedback for development and for playerbase/staff interaction. I didn’t ask about the CSM. I asked about teleconferencing vs direct, prolonged face-to-face interaction. The sort of thing that happens in every industry. It doesn’t take more than a quick google search to [demonstrate](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/face-to-face-meeting-vs-virtual-meetings-who-winner-dhrumil-bhatt/) that there are [pros and cons](https://www.eztalks.com/video-meeting/virtual-meetings-vs-face-to-face-meeting.html) to [both meeting types](https://meetingking.com/face-to-face-meetings-vs-virtual-meetings/), that the optimal model is a combination of both. Even companies whose business model directly relies on telepresence understand that physical meetings have benefits you simply can’t duplicate online, and are generally better for brainstorming, or whiteboard presentations. This would imply that the optimal model for the CSM is, well, pretty close to the schedule we have right now: most of the CSM’s work is done via telepresence, but there are two extended ‘Summits’ where they all go to Iceland to participate in direct, face-to-face communication, where the CSMs and the developers can immediately read one another’s body language, tension levels, etc, in ways that aren’t really possible even with a webcam. As for what other MMO developers do… Why is following the herd considered a good thing? You say the CSM hasn’t been effective. The truth is: we don’t know what the CSM has _stopped_. NDAs prevent them from telling us anything on the order of ‘CCP wanted to make everyone’s ships turn into hot dogs, but we suggested that might be a completely idiotic idea and they shouldn’t let CCP Dillweed come up with Agency Events like that while he’s tripping balls on pee-shark’. As for whether or not you are defending a dissertation here, no, you are not. A dissertation represents a large chunk of the author’s time and effort. Instead, you’re asking to represent us. That means you want to be one of the people protecting _our_ time and effort. Which is to say I’d care far _less_ about a dissertation defense than I do a CSM candidate. And no, you have not come up with evidence and facts to back up your claims. You have come up with assertions, made without support evidence. Whether or not they are true doesn’t make them evidence, and some of them are definitely _not true_. For exampe, you _assert_: > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Internationally and also in large corporations, tele-conferencing is preferred. This isn’t really true, as it hinges on being a blanket, uniform statement. Tele-conferencing is preferred _for some purposes_. For others, face-to-face meetings are _definitely_ preferred. Tele-conferencing is _cheaper_, and easier to schedule, with less disruption of the time _around_ the meeting, but face-to-face meetings are still preferred, for many of the reasons I linked above. This is true both in industry and in politics. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Doesnt matter what I answer, or to how many of your repeated questions, or your denial of your trolling, we both know it will never be enough for you, and you will continue “heckling” here. Personally, this strikes me as evasive (as do most of your answers to this particular line of discussion), and dismissive of the concerns of the very people you claim to want to represent. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Many players do not agree that the CSM is representing the player community in the development of EVE Online. Many players are _wrong_. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > That staff member personally moved this thread here, obviously implicitly meaning he had read my OP. This doesn’t mean you’ll be allowed to run. It only means that the content of the thread wasn’t appropriate for the original location. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > For starters, a CSM 2 term max per person, only one CSM per Corp/Alliance, and changing CSM Summit to an entirely online event. Very few CSM last for more than 2 terms, as it’s not exactly an easy thing to put up with. Additionally, only one CSM per Corp/Alliance is a hollow, toothless idea. It’s obvious who you aim that idea at, but let’s take a moment and look at the actual CSM landscape _right now_. Right now, there are 10 CSM. Of them, 7/6 are not in the same Corp/Alliance. 4 are members of the same Alliance, and 3 of those, in fact, the same Corporation. If your plan to limit that Corp/Alliance to 1 member were active… _they could just move_. For the moment, let’s set aside movement _during_ a term, and just look at the easy case. You’re pretty clearly aiming this bit at the Imperium, and Goonswarm, but if we look at the Alliances in the Imperium, LAWN, Bastion, and TNT have no CSM members. So it’d be child’s play to move 3 people into different Alliances to evade your hollow, ineffectual limitation. Please note that that was Alliances, not Corps. If we were just shuffling people between of corps, CONDI has enough corps to make that a no-brainer. Judge could go to Amok., Innominate stay where he is, and Aryth could be shuffled into ASCEE cuz that’d be hilarious and cruel (to both him and ASCEE). But that’s just moving them _before_ they’re elected. At least one CSM member has changed Alliance twice this term. (Do you know which one? It was kinda publicized if you were paying attention.) Three of the current CSM changed their Alliance during the course of the previous term (including one of the ones now in the same Corporation as 2 others), _while two of them were on the CSM_. At no point do the functions and terms of CSM membership imply that a candidate is pledging to represent _their Corp/Alliance_ to CCP. With that in mind, how would you propose keeping such a move from happening? Do you plan to insist that players not be allowed to change Corporation while they’re on the CSM? Is that even remotely sane? If a CSM member’s corporation failscades during their term, they end up locked into a 5-man corp that can’t do anything because the CEO and 3 other players all quit? What if they got _kicked out_? Can the corp CEO not kick someone out of corp because they’re on the CSM? 6 are (now) members of the same Coalition, a distinction that has _absolutely no official imprimateur from CCP_. There is no in-game support for Coalitions. There is no forum designation of coalitions. CCP’s developers are not expected to track Coalition membership. Without that, there’s no way to really police ‘which Coalition are you in?’ This is especially true when you consider that each prospective CSM member designates which of their accounts and alts they wish to identify with. The nullsec spy game depends, to large extent, on being able to operate without having your alts identified, including by hostile spies. Spies often use VPNs and other smokescreens to disguise their IP addresses and other tell-tale indicators of linked accounts. The organizations that use these spies are well aware of these methods, and train their spies in their use. It would be child’s play to train their CSMs in such things as well (assuming the CSM in question isn’t already familiar with them). CCP’s stance on doxxing prevents them from revealing a player’s alts, which would make it difficult for them to say ‘Oh, no, Salvos can’t actually serve even though you voted him in, he has an alt in CONDI’. And that doesn’t even get into the plan we openly acknowledged we’d use when CCP was talking about limiting Alliance sizes: ‘Goonswarm 1’, ‘Goonswarm 2’, ‘Goonswarm 3’… So… how do you propose enforcing this idea in a way that has _any_ actual effect? Don’t get me wrong, I understand that your intent here is to ensure that more of the community is directly represented. However, _this_ idea seems completely inept at achieving that goal, so I’m curious as to how you’d address the inadequacies with it. Frankly, the way to get more of the community more equally represented is to get them to _vote_, in an organized manner. If you don’t vote, you get what those of us who do _decide_ you’ll get. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/302 "2018-09-24T15:40:54Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > You are trolling as a seated CSM. > This has no bearing as a conversation. Sure it does. How do we know that you actually play the game? There’s no evidence I can find that you login. Your zkillboard has a total of 0 kills, and 4 losses, the most recent of which was 2015. Even casual players tend to lose ships more often than an average of 1 per year. As a potential voter - and since you have used absence of evidence as evidence of absence throughout this thread - I’m asking you to tell us how often you log in and how we can verify this is true. How can I, as a potential voter, in good conscience vote for someone - even if I agree with their platform - if I am concerned they don’t actually play the game? ![salvosdoesntplay](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/9/b/9b775e948d9f7b947a3c8c1ec6349ce4a20a634e.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/303 "2018-09-24T15:42:22Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I didn’t ask about the CSM. But I am. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/304 "2018-09-24T15:42:36Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > About 21k votes, iirc. 29k. > **[Welcome CSM 13 | EVE Online](https://www.eveonline.com/news/view/welcome-csm-13)** > > CSM 13 has been elected, here are your candidates and the voting numbers ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/305 "2018-09-24T15:50:21Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I’m asking you to tell us how often you log in and how we can verify this is true. How often I log in on this account, character, or any other is none of your business, especially as asked by you as a seated CSM. Keep the trolling going at your own jeapordy. Your posts will only reinforce the pre-existing views of my supporters/voters that the CSM does not represent them and is politically influenced. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 3:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/306 "2018-09-24T15:52:31Z")
Is this your only response to that entire post, or will you address the actual points raised in it? ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 3:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/307 "2018-09-24T15:52:50Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > How often I log in on this account, character, or any other is none of your business, especially as asked by you as a seated CSM. > > Keep the trolling going at your own jeapordy. > Your posts will only reinforce the views of my supporters/voters that the CSM does not represent them and is politically influenced. You are putting yourself out in the community as a candidate for office. Thus, how often you log in is my business, as a potential voter. This is what happens when you run for office - things that you otherwise could keep private become topics of discussion. Repeatedly referring to someone’s questioning of the OP as trolling does not make it trolling. You’re a candidate for office, and I am trying to ask questions that I feel are important for me in making up my mind about who to vote for on CSM 14. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/308 "2018-09-24T15:53:25Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Is this your only response to that entire post, Yes. And it addresses it all as the only relevant issue and response to it. I question the form/function/existence of the CSM program. If you have further questions about that, ask the seated CSMs via contact with them. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/309 "2018-09-24T15:56:14Z")
So you have no response to having one of your anchor positions demonstrated to be non-viable and ineffective? You have no response to having the assertions you claim are ‘facts’ demonstrated, _with evidence_, to be incorrect? I think that tells anyone reading this thread all they need to know. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > I question the form/function/existence of the CSM program. > > If you have further questions about that, ask the seated CSMs via contact with them. Considering ‘that’ is _you_ questioning the form/function/existence of the CSM program, I fail to see why anyone should be contacting the current, seated CSMs to ask them about _your_ positions. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/310 "2018-09-24T15:59:25Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Considering ‘that’ is _you_ questioning the form/function/existence of the CSM program, I fail to see why anyone should be contacting the current, seated CSMs to ask them about _your_ positions. It’s not just him, remember. Another 90 people agreed with him in the polling that was done. He’s almost got enough for a small-time WH corp worth of players who support disbanding the CSM. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/311 "2018-09-24T16:00:36Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I think that tells anyone reading this thread all they need to know. I dont need, or want, the votes of the trolls here and existing “CSM buddy” voters. My voters/supporters are those that dont believe the CSM system represents them. Those are the voters I will represent. I know this is difficult for you to grasp, but thats what is going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/312 "2018-09-24T16:02:34Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > It’s not just him, remember So far 3 existing CSM have attempted to troll my campaign. Wait till my supporters hear that, whom do not trust, do not agree with and will not vote for this kind of system. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/313 "2018-09-24T16:03:12Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > So far 3 existing CSM have attempted to troll my campaign. > > Wait till my supporters hear that. I have seen no evidence of any CSM members trolling this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/314 "2018-09-24T16:03:29Z")
Tsk. Don’t stoop, Brisc. There’s a lot more people than that poll who wouldn’t mind seeing the CSM abolished or radically restructured, including members of other under-represented segments of the playerbase. Many of those people have better ideas for assuring broader representation than this guy’s, though. Additionally, most of them openly acknowledge that part of the reason the system is so broken is because democratic representation inherently favors more organized blocs of voters. They can speak with a unified voice. Disorganized voters tend to wind up scattering a greater number of votes between multiple candidates, ensuring none of them win. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 4:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/315 "2018-09-24T16:04:52Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I have seen no evidence of any CSM members trolling this thread. My voters/supporters wont agree with that, when I compile your posts here to them as proof they should vote for me to stop this in EVE. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/316 "2018-09-24T16:05:59Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > My voters/supporters are those that dont believe the CSM system represents them. ‘Your’ voters are those you can convince to vote for _you_, as opposed to voting for any one of a number of other protest votes. If you think you’ll be the only one clamoring to get onto the ballot on the ‘grrr CSM, hat CSM’ platform, you’re a fool. You need to be able to demonstrate that your intended policies are viable, in order to convince people to choose _you_ over someone else who’s just better at politicking than you are. Because buddy, you ain’t too hot at it. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/317 "2018-09-24T16:06:28Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > There’s a lot more people than that poll who wouldn’t mind seeing the CSM abolished or radically restructured, including members of other under-represented segments of the playerbase. My point wasn’t that there were aren’t more players who could potentially agree with that position. I agree with you that it’s likely there are more. My point was more about the fact that he continues to rely on an unscientific, self-selected poll of fewer than 150 accounts as demonstrative of significant support for this contention in the player base. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/318 "2018-09-24T16:07:03Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > My voters/supporters wont agree with that, when I compile your posts here to them as proof they should vote for me to stop this in EVE. To stop what? ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072/319 "2018-09-24T16:19:14Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > > > My voters/supporters wont agree with that, when I compile your posts here to them as proof they should vote for me to stop this in EVE. > > To stop what? [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/8/8/5/88532444606699e553e68aaf066f46ce04b83959.jpeg "Statement on CSM:") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wV91Zmqk0) [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072.md?page=13) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/running-for-csm-next-year/108072.md?page=15)