Saint Michaels Soul

low-sec
csm
faction-war

(Saint Michaels Soul) #9

@Nunosh :slight_smile:

I’m not suggesting that anyone change their playstyle, or indeed that progression runs from HS -> LS -> Null. Some people don’t like PvP and any attempt to shoe-horn them in that direction will end up costing eve players.

I’m personally not a pvp champion (yep I’ve done a couple of ATs), although I do find that part of eve the most thrilling.

I do think the Wardec mechanic needs some work, along with the mining mechnic, but as I no longer live in HS I’d be presumtuous to dicate what I thought the players wanted.

What sort of things are a problem for you at the moment?


(Toxic Yaken) #10

Go on…


(Saint Michaels Soul) #11

As I’ve stated I’m not a games designer, however there’s no doubting that the current mechanics lead to encounter avoidance (dropping/flipping corps) and even people stopping playing to avoid confrontation (primarily in HS) and that’s not a fun outcome for either party. Lots of people have talked about this for years now and I don’t think we’re much nearer a satisfying solution to the problem.

What in an ideal world would I like to see? Perhaps a solution with objectives (not only limited to PvP ones) could lead to a more balanced “war” that would encourage participation and undocking.

On the other side of the coin, two common complaints are that the cost of wardecs is too low and the fact that a corp isn’t “penalised” for having hundreds on the go. I’d probably agree that the cost of wardecs does need looking at again, taking into account ISK inflation. Personally I don’t think penalising anyone for having more wardecs makes any sense at all though - The HS pirate lifestyle is something that’s precious and unique to the Eve ecosystem, where risk should always be present.


(Toxic Yaken) #12

Why do you think that war isn’t balanced right now, and why do you think having objectives would make it more balanced?


(Saint Michaels Soul) #13

Perhaps balance isn’t quite the right phrase; I’m musing about how to avoid the “optimal” solution for many players being avoiding the wardec entirely.

If there were agency style opportunities for both corps on a daily basis to augment the existing PvP (perhaps leading to wardec scoreboards?) would that encourage non pvp focussed corps to undock and participate in a way that suits their skills?

That all having been said, forming up your own fleet and making a nuisance of yourself and hopefully getting some fights with the wardeccing corp was always where the fun was for me.


(Saint Michaels Soul) #14

Catch me for a face to face over a pint or three At Eve NT London on Feb 10 - Eve London Meet


(Quinlin Harpy) #15

What ideas do you have to unfuck FW and put some life back into it?

We really do need a FW rep.


(Saint Michaels Soul) #16

Hi Quinlan.

My primary list for FW concerns (some of which are personal and some of which are collated from the various people I’ve chatted to). In very rough order of how important I feel they are:

  1. Address citadel anchoring and vulnerability in warzone system (both for neutrals and for FW characters).
  2. look at the tier system specifically in respect of the farmer motivation and motivation for the “losing” side - This feels worse in Amarr/Min space than in the cal/gal zone
  3. Look at balance between the LP stores. Yes there are RP reasons for the imbalance but the playing field needs levelling. It’s too easy to tank the pricing for certain factions, wheras (for example) the Gal LP store relatively strong.
  4. Re-vamping the FW mission system. The mission system across eve needs some love and FW is no exception. The problem was “solved” years ago and it’s now an isk printing licence with minimal risk
  5. Attacking neutrals in FW plexes doesn’t result in a security status standing loss (not a personal issue of mine but one other pilots complain about). Could be looked at by judicious use of suspect timers when in plexes or another method.
  6. 4 way FW. This one has been bought up by many people (including CCP employees) as something they’d like to see. So would we :slight_smile:
  7. Mobile warzone. Personally I’d like to see the warzone contract and expand based on activity, perhaps affecting the sec status of surround systems or potentially even opening up new LS systems for capture/defence activity.
  8. FW Lore Events. Live events can be hit or miss and people vary hugely on their buy-in to RP/Lore activity but it can’t be denied that they are immersive and add considerable flavour to the game.
  9. More character clothing suitable for the various militaries, ideally varied by rank

Edit: Plus the standings stuff. Christ, I can’t believe I missed that.


(Quinlin Harpy) #17

The changes in the next patch makes the citadel stuff not really an issue anymore.

One big problem that has yet to be solved with FW is the fact that Victory Points doesn’t scale with plex size, so a novice gives the same contest amount as a large etc.

Also what ideas do you have to deal with the silly amount of stabbed farmers/bots.

Regarding the 4 way FW system you talked about, I don’t think it’s a very good idea, how exactly would you like to see it work and what benefits can you see it having on the current FW situation.


(Saint Michaels Soul) #18

I agree the citadel changes are a step in the right direction. I’m not sure they solve every issue we’ve seen. That having been said, I did promise Jin that I would shut up on that topic until we’ve seen the effects of the pass :slight_smile:

Victory points scaling with plex size is an interesting topic and I can see both sides of the argument. Personally I love the idea a few competent alphas being able to hold off the effects of a less competent force who simply happen to have bigger ships BUT the time taken to capture the plex should probably be factored into the victory points. I don’t think this would be a bad step and almost certainly should be tested if it’s a small development change.

Four way FW was a way down the list as it feels like it would be a very development intensive change (system capture mechanics and the space itself would need to be updated) but personally like the idea of having (theoretically!) more targets to shoot at and a more diverse set of systems to potentially capture. Having a dynamic that could lead to 3 factions ganging up against one dominant power would also give more spice to extended capture pushes too.

Stabbed farmers are a thing and although they are annoying for anyone that wants to fight, we do have tools to deal with them (Eg. MNI). Do I find them game-breaking or similar? No. It’s an odd way to play eve from my perspective as it doesn’t feel particularly profitable and definitely isn’t fun. If that’s the way that someone wants to play, it’s odd but they’ve got the right to their playstyle.

Bots are a completely different issue. We’ve all run into bots across the warzone and they are seriously annoying (although I’ve noticed some don’t react until they start being locked and they return to the same plexes which makes some more catchable than others). Realistically though I think this one might be on the players to help fix and police - I’m not sure how mechanics can change to prevent bots that wouldn’t have a detrimental affect on other players. Genuine question: Do you think there are mechanics that would help here? People have discussed a warp disruption effect in plexes but I’m pretty sure that this would put a huge proportion of players going anywhere near them and would break the risk/reward balance completely.


(Quinlin Harpy) #19

I’ve always been a supporter of having plexes capture slower scaling with the amount of warp stabs you have on your ship, as this completely rids the warzones of the stabbed botting meta (not sure what its like on gal/cal warzone but its a major issue over here in amarr/min)

Victory points scaling with plexes is something that should have been in from the start, it makes no sense for a novice to be able to contest a system the same amount as a large, in less than half the time. I think it would actually speed up the FW gameplay and make more people interested in FW beings it would be less of a grindfest.

Also how do you feel about faction standing requirements? I’ve had plenty of recruits not want to join corp simply because they either have bad amarr standings or dont wanna ruin minmatar standings, my solution to this was make it so instead of making it so you need good faction standings, make the standings required corp based, so for example in amarr you wouldnt need positive amarr standings, you would need positive 24th IC standings. This is alot easier to grind up, especially for those with like -4 amarr standings.


(Saint Michaels Soul) #20

Re: Faction standings, we personally ran into seriously issues during the run up to the last AT as we invited in a corp to alliance specifically for the AT and it tanked our standings enough that we were having serious difficulties keeping the alliance in FW - I don’t want to have to run the sisters arc with three characters again for quite a while (and that’s about the only “quick” option vailable)! I see the need to have some kind of standing mechanic to deal with faction awoxers so your suggestion of moving it to a corp that you can actually grind for makes a heck of a lot of sense. It’s on the list.


(Oreb Wing) #21

This won’t do. You can create a spy alt and throw him into a plex with the enemy and effectively reduce their efficiency.


(Oreb Wing) #22

The stabbed farmer problem is a direct result of having a horribly lame game mechanic like defensive plexing, which requires less attention and effort than mining.

System contestation should fall 4% every day automatically or there should be a way to reduce contested levels some other way that isn’t as lame as bringing your home system to stable when it is less than 15%. A selfless task no one wants to do, so they create dplex alts for it. I’ve mentioned many times that the difference in LP which is lost in the calculation should go directly to the ihub, to offset bleed from Oplexing.


(Oreb Wing) #23

Also, a 4way war would be a **** show, as galmil presence would be overwhelming in the southern wz. You have no idea how many dudes are dying for something new like that. If medals were still a thing, it would be 100% likelihood of migration and curbstopming.


(Xenuria) #24

I think risk averse shenaniganry like warp stab fit insta-warp afk buttan spinners are dumb. I don’t recall anybody on the CSM who has said “Yeah I think all these people afk in plexes with warp core stabs are a good thing”.

The question is what needs to be fixed in any given scenario. The question is how do you make the case to CCP that they should focus on such a fix. How would you inspire the motivation or impetus needed for these changes to take form?


(Oreb Wing) #25

You convince them on the basis that non-combat fits within a warzone are going hard against that grain and general idea of factional warfare that has a direct, negative, impact on new players who sit on the edge of the knife between being a farmer and learning how to pew. Dplexing has to get reinvented or go. Same with missions, but that is a more delicate issue, imo, since there is no longer any end game objective in FW with medals gone or when things are slow.


(Xenuria) #26

Most people agree on the existence of the problem.
Most people agree on a number of ways to potentially fix the problem.

The issue with CSM stuff is how do you communicate the importance of something like that when there is a several year long backlog of stuff that plenty of people think is just as important. You need to treat this like a research paper in uni, gather data and present an argument. Even if that data is just survey monkey sent to a few hundred eve players, that is still way more meaningful than telling CCP something is broken.

The CSM isn’t about a platform of things YOU as an individual want to see fixed or addressed. Your feelings and desires are secondary to those of your constituency.


(Saint Michaels Soul) #27

The CSM isn’t about a platform of things YOU as an individual want to see fixed or addressed

I can’t agree more, which is why I’m stepping back from the WCS argument. I understand that individuals are passionate about this subject, but that it’s a vocal (and sometimes purposefully tongue-in-cheek) minority.

There are much more serious gameplay issues that affect LS/FW and although I realise that the CSM highlight and push these, it would benefit our slice of the ecosystem to have direct representation.


(Saint Michaels Soul) #28

On the subject of shameless self-promotion, I’ve done a podcast with Rixx Javix (of piracy and creative artwork fame) which goes into some of my CSM thoughts and generally shooting the breeze about the state LS and the game etc.

Enjoy!