# SESPS Response to I-RED Demands & Unprovoked Attacks in Uchoshi **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2021, 1:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899 "2021-11-15T01:46:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2021, 8:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/61 "2021-11-16T20:04:53Z")
They’re only the wrong high places when they’re inconvenient. The rest of the time, they’re the _right_ low places. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Celeste\_Etoile](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/celeste_etoile/32/459967_2.png) [@Celeste\_Etoile](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Celeste_Etoile)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2021, 6:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/62 "2021-11-21T06:22:20Z")
Gaslighting is their MO, but I suppose they do so _much_ of it to try and make up for how poorly they do it. It doesn’t help. ---
**Author:** ![Makoto\_Priano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makoto_priano/32/383919_2.png) [@Makoto\_Priano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makoto_Priano)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2021, 1:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/63 "2021-11-21T13:35:47Z")
🍿 Captain Rhiannon, don’t you have a list of rules for diplomats, which includes one about never engaging in forum diplomacy? I feel it might be time for you to re-publish the list for the neophytes here. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2021, 2:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/64 "2021-11-21T14:04:20Z")
It does not _quite_ say never engage in forum diplomacy… but The Rules I think you’re referring to are as follows and you’re probably thinking #6, though some others also apply. This was written in 108, which was a more courteous and more direct era of capsuleer diplomacy. I personally think that the rules still hold, though. > **PR 101, by Elsebeth Rhiannon, YC108** > > **Rule #1** : no, it is not enough to know yourself that you are doing a good job, how you look in public does matter. > > **Rule #2** : people who are not paying attention to how they make your corporation / alliance look like when they appear in public should not be allowed to talk in public. Better yet, they should not be hired in the first place. (Corollary: If you allow your pilots to appear in public, you should have a dedicated PR staff monitoring it.) > > **Rule #3** : there is nothing to be gained from engaging in “smacktalk”, that is, bashing your opponents in public. > > **Rule #4** : whether or not what you are saying about your opponent is in fact true, #3 still holds. > > **Rule #5** : if you think rules #1-#4 do not apply in your situation, you should not be doing PR in the first place. Probably not talking to anyone outside of your family, either. > > **Rule #6** : negotiations with both your enemies and your allies should be done in privacy; the public forums are for addressing the general populace. (Sidenote: it is possible to make addressing the general populace look like talking to your enemy, see “open letters”.) > > **Rule #7** : do not lie and do not publish unconfirmed rumors as the truth. This will initially make giving a good impression of yourself a pain in the ass to do in certain situations, but in the long run when the audience knows you just do not lie, it will work to your advantage. > > **Rule #8** : when your opponent is busy making themselves look bad all by themselves, there is no reason to interfere. (Corollary: if you can see the opponent looks like a moron in public, so can the general audience. No need to point it out to them; just sit back and enjoy the show.) > > **Rule #9** : if you do not want to discuss something, do not bring it up yourself. (Related observation: peace and unity is rarely achieved by insulting the ones you wish to be in peace and unity with.) > > **Rule #10** : only provoke the enemy when you are prepared for the war declaration. ---
**Author:** ![Makoto\_Priano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makoto_priano/32/383919_2.png) [@Makoto\_Priano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makoto_Priano)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2021, 2:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/65 "2021-11-21T14:33:40Z")
Thank you. Precisely the list. #6 is exactly the rule in question. ---
**Author:** ![Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugh_crow-slave/32/441552_2.png) [@Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugh_Crow-Slave)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2021, 4:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/66 "2021-11-21T16:10:32Z")
You should re-read that rule then. This thread has nothing to do with communicating with I red. It’s about trying to look like a victim. It was rule 7 they failed to follow and why this blew up in their face. ---
**Author:** ![Clementine\_Lafleur](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/clementine_lafleur/32/414082_2.png) [@Clementine\_Lafleur](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Clementine_Lafleur)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2021, 7:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/67 "2021-12-13T19:41:59Z")
> [@Outrage in the Veterans Community](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/outrage-in-the-veterans-community/341616): > > Recent developments in the Amarrian capsuleer militia have caused great turmoil in the Imperial Veterans League. It appears that large alliance Local is Primary has allied itself with so-called “Kybernaut” alliance Stribog Clade. This is a shocking development that has the navy veterans and survivors community in flames. As we all know, last year’s triglavian invasion resulted in the loss of Harva, Raravoss, Kuharah, Niarja and several other systems as well as countless losses amongst the navy … You know this recent post by @Nahtal_Azaph reminded me of this targeted attack by I-RED. Isn’t it amazing that when it suits people, it’s easy to blur out hypocrisy. Are officials of I-RED going to start an investigation of their members flying with Stribog too? Why not throw that @Miran_Tereven under the proverbial bus too? ---
**Author:** ![Henrik\_Suzaku](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/henrik_suzaku/32/358060_2.png) [@Henrik\_Suzaku](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Henrik_Suzaku)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2021, 8:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/68 "2021-12-13T20:51:20Z")
This is nothing more than self-righteous agitprop squawking, probably sourced from the Gallente media lie machine. I for one have never heard of Mr. Azaph or his supposed veteran’s organization, but this public release on the eve of a victory by forces of law and order appears suspiciously timed to coincide with the interests of the Empire’s enemies. I take offense to this malicious targeting of loyal Caldari temporarily attached to SPD field command. Both Tereven-haani and the IRED capsuleer in question were flying as members of a support operation with our close allies in Local is Primary. As loyal servants to the Empire and battle-proven allies of the State, we do not typically ask CTRLV to provide full forms in triplicate listing every capsuleer known to be in the system that day or expected to arrive in system, nor do we distribute intelligence to all members of our fleet. The only people who could have any knowledge of the probable disposition of allied forces is SPD field command, and not Tereven Security or Ishuk-Raata. But no one of any sense takes this jabbering seriously. It’s too obviously propaganda designed to drive a wedge between an alliance that strikes fear in the heart of our enemies. Instead, let us celebrate the strike on the face this glorious battle gave to the treacherous Dock Workers. Glory to the State! ---
**Author:** ![Sahara\_Jackal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sahara_jackal/32/296697_2.png) [@Sahara\_Jackal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sahara_Jackal)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2021, 10:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/69 "2021-12-13T22:59:08Z")
> [@Clementine\_Lafleur](#): > > Isn’t it amazing that when it suits people, it’s easy to blur out hypocrisy. Are officials of I-RED going to start an investigation of their members flying with Stribog too? Why not throw that @Miran_Tereven under the proverbial bus too? Oh, I don’t see any conflict at all! I-RED has never taken a single hostile action against Stribog anyway. Apparently if it’s not a peaceful industrialist corporation providing jobs to Caldari citizens, it’s not a valid target for I-RED. ---
**Author:** ![Danuvia\_Za](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/danuvia_za/32/459101_2.png) [@Danuvia\_Za](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Danuvia_Za)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 1:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/70 "2021-12-14T01:13:41Z")
I guess Ishukone is a bit more favorable to slave-plantation industrial structures – can’t have those being disturbed! The profits are a good bit better, I’d imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 5:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/71 "2021-12-14T05:16:26Z")
When you act like a simple known fact is not true, you come through as either dense or lying. Neither is a good look on the IGS, nor a good reputation to have. ---
**Author:** ![Sahara\_Jackal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sahara_jackal/32/296697_2.png) [@Sahara\_Jackal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sahara_Jackal)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 4:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/72 "2021-12-14T16:08:33Z")
What’s that? The sound of a comment that nobody asked for? It must be Elsebeth Rhiannon! This comment is especially funny coming from _you._ But since we’re handing out unsolicited advice, here’s some for you: _best you don’t ask what **your** reputation is, Ms. Rhiannon._😉 ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 4:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/73 "2021-12-14T16:29:56Z")
Oh, look, every comment about facts responded with a personal attack. Classy as always. ---
**Author:** ![Sahara\_Jackal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sahara_jackal/32/296697_2.png) [@Sahara\_Jackal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sahara_Jackal)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 5:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/74 "2021-12-14T17:07:15Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Oh, look, every comment about facts responded with a personal attack Aren’t you precious! Yes, let’s go ahead and pretend that “facts” are what you were providing. And so ends another reading from the Gospel of Elsebeth, Chapter One, Verse 10: **“It doesn’t count as a personal attack as long as it is _passive aggressive!_”** p.s. At least I have the guts to tell you directly that I dont like you. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 5:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/75 "2021-12-14T17:41:50Z")
> [@Sahara\_Jackal](#): > > At least I have the guts to tell you directly that I dont like you. But not the guts to admit that your holding corp is, in fact, your holding corp. ---
**Author:** ![Lauralite\_Anne\_Brezia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lauralite_anne_brezia/32/380065_2.png) [@Lauralite\_Anne\_Brezia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lauralite_Anne_Brezia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 9:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/76 "2021-12-14T21:33:33Z")
Normally, I prefer to be nominally diplomatic. That said. You lot of bloody _parahena_. Each of you bickering like ■■■■■■■ children. No ■■■■■■■ ■■■■ that SESPS had connections with Stribog, that doesn’t make them a front for Kybernauts anymore than my business dealings in Pochven make me one. Nor does the majority of you lot having connections to various pirates and criminal elements that you conveniently love glossing over until needed make you shills for pirates or criminals. But indeed, this entire thread is a farce, from each of you. And I do damned well mean each of you. Have to put on a show and theater to _PROVE_ how right you are. And frankly it extends to many other threads on these forums. Now… Kindly, children(and you all bloody well may as be at this point, even you Jackal), stop being dickheads. There’s enough of them already. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 9:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/77 "2021-12-14T21:36:44Z")
> [@Lauralite\_Anne\_Brezia](#): > > No ■■■■■■■ ■■■■ that SESPS had connections with Stribog, that doesn’t make them a front for Kybernauts anymore than my business dealings in Pochven make me one. They have more than simple “connections”. They were also the corporation that before the Pochven war _held the structures of Stribog_ in Pochven, including the key asset Azbel and Tatara. That is _not_ comparable to you having business with them. Saying so is not being a dickhead or bickering like children, not when an accusation was made about an attack against “unrelated civilians” and “peaceful industrialists”. ---
**Author:** ![Ilyan\_Valtovist](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ilyan_valtovist/32/461710_2.png) [@Ilyan\_Valtovist](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ilyan_Valtovist)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 9:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/78 "2021-12-14T21:37:42Z")
Not that “doing business” with them isn’t going to be _noted_, mind. ---
**Author:** ![Lauralite\_Anne\_Brezia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lauralite_anne_brezia/32/380065_2.png) [@Lauralite\_Anne\_Brezia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lauralite_Anne_Brezia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 9:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/79 "2021-12-14T21:38:01Z")
You’ll note Else, that I’m calling the entire lot of you, Stribog and SESPS included, children in this. Because none of you can shut the ■■■■ up. ---
**Author:** ![Lauralite\_Anne\_Brezia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lauralite_anne_brezia/32/380065_2.png) [@Lauralite\_Anne\_Brezia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lauralite_Anne_Brezia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2021, 10:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899/81 "2021-12-14T22:01:26Z")
Never said it wouldn’t be noted. And its never been a secret either. Same way that Amarrian Corporations have open business dealings in the Republic, or the megacorps of the State having open business dealings in the Federation, and vice versa, all the while ‘being at war.’ [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sesps-response-to-i-red-demands-unprovoked-attacks-in-uchoshi/336899.md?page=5)