# Shakor's reign **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [February 20, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345 "2019-02-20T16:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 5:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/41 "2019-02-21T05:27:26Z")
They DO need a place to return to after all. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 5:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/42 "2019-02-21T05:51:03Z")
So… no indecision, but let’s not do it _yet_… mmmhm. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 6:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/43 "2019-02-21T06:39:49Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > The Republic is experiancing sustained economic growth under the Tribal council vs. stagnation while under the Parliament. We have a stronger economy. Before Shakor, we had built up from _nothing_ to an independent Republic of high technological achievement, _while_ also diverting resources into building a secret fleet, in less than 120 years. That is hardly _stagnation_. Even if you think the _current_ government then was failing, the _system_ obviously wasn’t. In addition, your statistics are based on spaceside data, which is under heavy development due to capsuleer era. If you want to use capsuleer-influenced data as proof, then please include the fact that indie capsuleer trade went from _excatly zero_ in YC102 to multiple active trade hubs during Midular’s prime-minister-ship. That is _quite_ a lot of growth, even when obviously such a new economy was far less stable. (Of course, most capsuleer-induced growth is not the government’s doing. But its existence has to be taken into account for both, or neither.) The economy is doing well. This is great. How much of it is attributable to the coup is less certain. _In addition_, we are now bleeding resources of that growth into the militia war. As a war that must be fought but cannot be permanently won, it is by nature a war of attrition. In a war of attrition, the smaller party, even if superior in absolute, will lose proportionally more. We are becoming weaker relative to what matters - the Amarr Empire. > [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > We are now 7 tribes, not just 4. We are whole. _Karin Midular_ tried to bring Nefantar closer to us, but was opposed by shakorites because it was being “a traitor”. The _Starkmanir_ discovery predates the coup. Read my history lesson, linked above. These developments started before the coup. Shakor’s taking glory for something that was not his doing. > [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > The Parliamentary system that we had was flawed from the onset, bestowed upon us by a generous benefactor _without regard_ to the cultural context in which it would function. This line of thought on history never ceases to amaze me. How would a foreign nation have bestowed _anything_ on _Minmatar tribes_ who had just fought a rebellion _and won_? we were hardly weaker then than we are now. While we took influences from others, and what clever young nation would _not_, in the end surely it was _the Tribes_ who decided? > [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > The result was a system where one tribe had a numerical advantage in terms of representation (the Sebiestor) While as I explain above the rest of your strength arguments are while factual not convincingly _due_ to the coup, this one I think rings true. If we (the Sebiestor) win the popular vote repeatedly despite not having any sort of population majority, then I suppose it _is_ indeed better for those less popular ones to have a mass murder and a coup rather than risk an _honest_ re-election. It is rare to see anyone put it in as clear terms as you do. I appreciate the honesty. ---
**Author:** ![Jason\_Galente](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jason_galente/32/383984_2.png) [@Jason\_Galente](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jason_Galente)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 6:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/44 "2019-02-21T06:46:54Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > But one of the real disadvantages of climbing the ladder out here—however unintentionally—and being forced to bleed into the sausage-press a bit myself… is that a whole lot of maneuverings start looking a lot more transparent as power-grabs. I’m as cynical about power struggles as anyone out there, but when there’s a genuine crisis on your government’s hands, sometimes a power struggle serves an actual purpose. Most of it is vanity, but sometimes you can find some substance when the… how does the ancient saying go… rubber hits the road. All that said, while I think Midular was either incompetent, or working within a fundamentally flawed governmental model, I do think she got served one hell of a raw deal and was stuck pretty much unable to control her own perception for years, and didn’t seem like such a bad person as far as politicians go. Which might be why she was eaten alive at every turn. ---
**Author:** ![Jason\_Galente](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jason_galente/32/383984_2.png) [@Jason\_Galente](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jason_Galente)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 6:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/45 "2019-02-21T06:52:59Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > that indie capsuleer trade went from _excatly zero_ in YC102 to multiple active trade hubs during Midular’s prime-minister-ship. That is _quite_ a lot of growth That is quite a lot of literally inevitable growth that would’ve happened, by definition, under anyone’s leadership. When you go up from zero, you can see infinite growth, actually, and use that to make whoever happened to be holding the wizard hat, look good. When in reality, the reason that growth happened was the Yulai Convention itself and the creation of the capsuleer… not Karin Midular, not Maleatu Shakor. ---
**Author:** ![Jason\_Galente](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jason_galente/32/383984_2.png) [@Jason\_Galente](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jason_Galente)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 6:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/46 "2019-02-21T06:55:50Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > While we took influences from others, and what clever young nation would _not_ , in the end surely it was _the Tribes_ who decided? Take it from a half-Gallentean, raised in the Federation, who has been somewhat disgusted with the Federation for some time: The Federation’s greatest asset is its ability to feed you ideas with very little actually said by them officially, and then letting you think it was your idea the entire time. It is the most tried and true tactic in their playbook, they’ve used it on civilization after civilization. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 7:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/47 "2019-02-21T07:00:22Z")
> [@Jason\_Galente](#): > > That is quite a lot of literally inevitable growth that would’ve happened, by definition, under anyone’s leadership. Yes, that was my _point_: if you include capsuleer-influenced data, your results are going to be borked, and observations not attributable to the current governments. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 7:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/48 "2019-02-21T07:08:08Z")
> [@Jason\_Galente](#): > > The Federation’s greatest asset is its ability to feed you ideas with very little actually said by them officially, and then letting you think it was your idea the entire time. Certainly. But the argument is not that the Federation _influenced_ us, it is that we were _forced_, and a coup is legitimate to cease power back. Now, I am not against more tribal autonomy or a Chief’s Council as the highest form of government. I am freeborn Seb from a high-class urban clan on Mikramurka, Matar. That is how I am _used_ to having things run, on a smaller scale. I am opposed to mass murders of officials without trial, and a conspiracies posing as Elders to gain legitimacy, and sham elections with just one candidate, and changing forms of government without going through the established legal or traditional ways. ---
**Author:** ![Jason\_Galente](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jason_galente/32/383984_2.png) [@Jason\_Galente](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jason_Galente)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 7:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/49 "2019-02-21T07:12:07Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > But the argument is not that the Federation _influenced_ us, it is that we were _forced_ , and a coup is legitimate to cease power back. How much choice do you have when it comes to the massive amount of economic and cultural soft power, not to mention the massive “YOU OWE ME” elephant in the room? I have an easier time believing the tribal governments that existed when Minmatar were independent of outside influence are the true ‘choice’ of the Minmatar rather than any decisions they make very soon after such events as the ones that tied the Federation and the fledgling Republic at the hip, in a not exactly equally beneficial relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 7:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/50 "2019-02-21T07:32:15Z")
> [@Jason\_Galente](#): > > I have an easier time believing the tribal governments that existed when Minmatar were independent of outside influence are the true ‘choice’ of the Minmatar Yes, but what do we _in reality_ know of those governments? I know the Shakorite movement lays claim to knowledge of what it is to be True Minmatar above and beyond of archeology and living tradition, but I find such claims pretty bogus. What we know comes from archeology and legends. I come from a clan who has been free since the Rebellion, and with some contact to their heritage before that. Our history prides us as having been “the first to pick up arms, the first to lay them down”. I know something - not personally, but from fairly recent clan history - about building up on shoddily preserved ways and customs. And trust _me_, if you want things to work in a particular way, it is not very hard to come up with an explanation for why it is actually more _trad_. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 8:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/51 "2019-02-21T08:09:18Z")
> [@Jason\_Galente](#): > > I have an easier time believing the tribal governments that existed when Minmatar were independent of outside influence are the true ‘choice’ of the Minmatar You mean the ones a millennium ago? Uhm… ok. But even if we could reconstruct enough information to use them… those were the true ‘choice’ of the Minmatar… _before the Day of Darkness_. Ever since then, _no_ Minmatar government has existed independent of outside influence. **Hate** is still influence. ---
**Author:** ![Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/melisma_ramijozana/32/168474_2.png) [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Melisma_Ramijozana)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 1:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/52 "2019-02-22T01:01:39Z")
Here is a question that’s mostly been tangentially addressed so far: Would the Republic be better off without the Parliament attack having happened? Also known as: What do you _think_ the Republic would be like now? ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 1:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/53 "2019-02-22T01:11:28Z")
> [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](#): > > Also known as: What do you _think_ the Republic would be like now? Mired in bureaucratic corruption, weak institutions, and no sense of direction. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 5:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/54 "2019-02-22T05:45:33Z")
> [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](#): > > Also known as: What do you _think_ the Republic would be like now? That depends entirely what the election results would have been. > [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](#): > > Would the Republic be better off without the Parliament attack having happened? Nevertheless, I believe the answer to this is _yes_. Without trials and with the impossibility of even post-hoc _neutral_ review of the evidence, we live now in a state where you have reason to fear government assassins if you are labeled traitor by the same government. We live now in a state where you cannot trust that laws will hold, or that another tribe will not take matters in their hands if they see a member of yours a threat. Traitors or not, all those dead in the murders were someone’s kin. And outsiders murdering one of yours without prior contact or trial is not just an execution, it is also a threat and a statement of oppression. It says: “We will not respect your autonomy if **_we_** think action against them is necessary”. That is not a deed worthy of a Minmatar Tribal Nation; it is a decidedly _Amarrian_ way of thinking. Such a situation is not conducive to open and honest political discussion or representation. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 7:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/55 "2019-02-22T07:55:47Z")
> [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](#): > > Would the Republic be better off without the Parliament attack having happened? Yes. Its birth cry wouldn’t be tarnished with senseless mass murder of our own kind. > [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](#): > > What do you _think_ the Republic would be like now? Largely the same as it is now, sans a dark stain on our collective past. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/56 "2019-02-22T14:58:49Z")
> [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](#): > > Would the Republic be better off without the Parliament attack having happened? Yes. I’d like to consider the event in isolation… but I can’t. It’s too wrapped up in what was happening before, and what has happened since. Government officials, from municipal leaders to members of Parliament, were killed (murdered or executed depends entirely on your perspective), and the only real proof we have that this was in any way justified was that provided by the killers. The authorities made no independent verification because in the immediate aftermath, the killers _became_ the authorities. A massive breakdown of the social order was perpetrated by those who immediately declared _themselves_ the guardians of social order. And it was never explained, if they could contain all of those ‘enemy agents’ and dispatch them, without police or security forces preventing it… why they couldn’t _detain_ those same individuals… or even the entire Parliament if needed, while independent investigation of the evidence went forward. ‘Oh, there was no time’ is ludicrous when it was clear that an immense amount of time went into the planning of the attack—it had to, or it couldn’t have succeeded. Would we be better off without the establishment of ‘Screw due process, _kill people_’ as what amounts to _de facto_ legal precedent for addressing government corruption? Is that a serious question? I don’t know what we’d be like today. We might be mired in indecision. We might be crippled and hamstrung. We might be _even stronger_ than we are. Certainly, in the aftermath of the killings, there was a lot of mistrust between us. Even if all of the charges were legitimate… was that all there was? Did anyone escape, or was this the universe’s first _perfectly successful_ example of counterintelligence operations spanning dozens of worlds and trillions of people? After all, there was no way to interrogate any of the accused to see if anyone had slipped the nets. What would the Republic be like now? Maybe, as [Parliament had already been dissolved](https://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/report-karin-midular-dissolves-parliament-ousts-shakor-and-yun-from-government/) when the killings happened [four days later](https://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/report-mass-murders-reported-at-minmatar-republic-government-facilities/), we’d have _exactly_ the same governmental structure we have now. We can’t ever _really_ have any idea what we’d be like. But yes, we’d _definitely_ be better off without the Sword of Damocles having been established as a way to get what you want, without any repercussions. And as long as no investigations are done, as long as none of the killers are brought to justice—vigilantism is still a damned _crime_, after all—then ‘kill your rivals’ will _always_ remain on our books as an _accepted_ alternative to the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![ValentinaDLM](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valentinadlm/32/242301_2.png) [@ValentinaDLM](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/ValentinaDLM)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 7:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/57 "2019-02-22T19:20:20Z")
We are stronger, because we aren’t a weak copy of the Gallente. We aren’t trying to model ourselves around their culture or government, our Tribal Republic has been designed to stand on it’s own traditions _our own traditions_, which we alone have the ability to control. The Sanmatar gave us the strength and courage to pursue this path, while also having the loyalty to the Tribes to return the power to them, when he could have monopolized it around himself should he have desired to do so, which would have made us a weak copy of the Amarr. We are strongest when we stand alone for our own traditions, our own nation, our own cultures. Not adopting Gallentean or Amarrian values. I don’t even think the material conditions matter when compared to such things, and empowering the Tribes to govern was the right step toward that goal. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/58 "2019-02-22T19:39:27Z")
We weren’t a copy of the Gallente when it happened, either. Parliament had already been disbanded. The wheels were already in motion _without_ a bloodbath where a cabal of power-hungry criminals dispensed justice the Tribes _had not authorized them to dispense_. Our traditions? Our traditions weren’t ‘kill one another to get ahead’. You want that, go talk to the Amarr and the Khanid. Our traditions include the longest period of internal peace the cluster has ever known. Empowering the Tribes, sure. Slaughtering municipal leaders, regional leaders, when they could have been arrested? That’s not ‘empowering the Tribes’. Just the opposite. The _Tribes_ didn’t get the chance to judge those people. They had that _stolen_ from them by the man who ‘gave us the strength’ to do _what was already happening_. ---
**Author:** ![Jocca\_Quinn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jocca_quinn/32/441838_2.png) [@Jocca\_Quinn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jocca_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/59 "2019-02-22T20:03:02Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The _Tribes_ didn’t get the chance to judge those people. They had that _stolen_ from them by the man who ‘gave us the strength’ to do _what was already happening_ . Technically it was the Elders that past judgement on the criminals, collaborators and traitors not Shakor. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 8:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/60 "2019-02-22T20:14:08Z")
> [@Jocca\_Quinn](#): > > Technically it was the Elders that past judgement on the criminals, collaborators and traitors not Shakor. That’s the story, isn’t it? But like I have [said before](https://eve-search.com/thread/806855-0/page/2#48), before it became really convenient to pin stuff on them, no one I know had really heard them speak for a long time. Malaetu Shakor we knew. Karin Midular we knew. The Parliament, the Chiefs, our local officials, those we knew. But I had never personally spoken to an elder or heard one say a thing about these matters of governance; I figured they are a spiritual order at best, mostly up-keeping certain traditions, without political sway. And suddenly they show up with a Fleet built on money supposedly no one in the actual government had noticed was missing _for a full century_, and their first deed after revealing themselves as a major force on the political field is _mass murder_, and we are supposed to go “ok fine then, because Elders”? Sorry, but smells like a conspiracy to me, and more false-patriotic twisting of traditions to support your own credibility. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345.md?page=4)