# Shakor's reign **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [February 20, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345 "2019-02-20T16:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/81 "2019-02-24T16:17:03Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > functioning as the Republic’s supreme diplomat and representative on the cosmopolitical stage. And that, too, is power. True, the Sanmatar has an important role, however this was a position that he was [offered](https://www.eveonline.com/article/shakor-to-be-named-sanmatar-1). He did not install himself. Further, he allowed both the Nefantir and the Starkmanir [time to sort out](https://www.eveonline.com/article/sanmatar-shakor-delays-tribal-assembly-returned-tribes-need-more-time-1) their process of Electing clan heads and Tribal Chiefs. He did not force a tribal council favorable to him, he did not, he did not speed the process to where certain tribes would be weaker than others, he respected the sovereignty of each Tribe and we now have a full council that properly represents the Tribes. > [@Teinyhr](#): > > Imagine if Tibus Heth had all the CEO’s killed to “ensure a new future for the Caldari people.” This comparison would hold merit had each of the Tribal Chiefs been killed. They were not. > [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](#): > > And for those particular clans who don’t wield the sort of power that gets them any notice in the Tribal Council, skipping that step makes things much more equitable, as we’re far more likely to have success through our own tribes than the overly bureaucratic Council. This. I wish I could have said as succinctly as this, but no matter, it has been said. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/82 "2019-02-24T16:25:17Z")
> [@Seraphea\_Vellastraan](#): > > I question the existence of seven individual beings that are some mythic, spiritual entities that embody the tribes. I admit, that after the Elder fleet my own passion and zeal led me to revere the Elders as actual individual beings. I even went so far to journey into the Great Wildlands, in search of them. I came back having found nothing. I now believe the Elders to be more conceptual, a metaphor for the ideals and strengths that each Tribe carries. I look back at my journey and see it as a time of self reflection, self learning, and of spiritual cleansing. I also realize that this admission falls inline with some of the Arguements that Arrendis and Elsebeth have been making. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/83 "2019-02-24T16:28:03Z")
> [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](#): > > It’s now functionally possible to deal directly with the tribes. And for those particular clans who don’t wield the sort of power that gets them any notice in the Tribal Council, skipping that step makes things much more equitable I am sure it is now _easier_ on some levels to deal with Tribes directly, with no pesky _commonly agreed on_ laws getting on the way, but this sounds like an exaggeration. I don’t know how it has been for others, but I can assure you that a Seb trade clan did never go asking permissions of outsiders for to establish business relations with whomever it damned pleased us. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/84 "2019-02-24T16:32:02Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Seb trade clan did never go asking permissions of outsiders for to establish business relations Yes, but now it’s legal for that Seb trade clan to not ask permission, where as before it was circumventing regulations. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 4:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/85 "2019-02-24T16:40:24Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > Yes, but now it’s legal for that Seb trade clan to not ask permission, where as before it was circumventing regulations. This is news to me and I was born to a Seb trade clan with a pretty hefty legal division. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/86 "2019-02-24T16:49:17Z")
I would imagine that the reason your clan has a pretty hefty legal division was _because_ of the intricacies of navigating complex, redundant, and overbearing regulations. I don’t imagine that it was done for fun. But then I cannot say I truelly understand the Sebiestor. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 4:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/87 "2019-02-24T16:53:22Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > I would imagine that the reason your clan has a pretty hefty legal division was _because_ of the intricacies of navigating complex, redundant, and overbearing regulations. I don’t imagine that it was done for fun. It’s done because it’s what we _do_. It’s mostly for Sebiestor internal law, though. We are ground-bound apart from a couple of individuals, we come from an area that’s pretty much all Seb, and pretty much all of Rhiannon business is in-tribe, and even there the majority of it with allied clans. For most of my clan, a Brutor is almost as much an outsider as a Gallente, and they care little for politics beyond their own city. I wouldn’t be surprised if most of our legal circle has not even noticed the regime and inter-tribal laws changed, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/melisma_ramijozana/32/168474_2.png) [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Melisma_Ramijozana)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/88 "2019-02-24T17:06:21Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > I wouldn’t be surprised if most of our legal circle has not even noticed the regime and inter-tribal laws changed, in fact. I’m from a Sebiestor manufacturing clan, but we’ve lacked the ability to navigate all the Republic’s different ‘commonly agreed on’ laws and regulations since the Republic was established, and that has hampered us greatly. It’s part of why I became a capsuleer at all, with hopes that I could get someone to notice and care about our little backwoods efforts. Granting more power to the Tribes has been immensely better for us; now we actually have something resembling a voice. But I can accept that this won’t have been the case for everyone, or maybe even for most. Just us, as has been the case for a very long time. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/89 "2019-02-24T17:09:16Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > This comparison would hold merit had each of the Tribal Chiefs been killed. They were not. Well, true, perhaps it is not a perfect analogy, however, CEO’s hold the ultimate power in the State, much like the representatives of the Tribes in the Parliament did, which was what I was getting at. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 5:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/90 "2019-02-24T17:10:31Z")
> [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](#): > > But I can accept that this won’t have been the case for everyone, or maybe even for most. Just us, as has been the case for a very long time. No doubt people’s experiences differ depending on how much they come in contact with outsiders, requiring inter-regional or inter-tribal or even inter-national legalese to be taken into account. The major change in government during Shakor’s time has, from my point of view, been that the highest _inter-tribal_ authority is no longer the parliament and law, but the Tribal Council of Chiefs (who, of course, can still pass the issue to the parliament if they see fit). _Intra-tribal autonomy_ is not a new invention. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/91 "2019-02-24T17:22:22Z")
I am not overly familiar with the State’s system of governance, however it is my Understanding that the CEO’s of the Megas have ultimate power within their respective Mega, much like a Tribal chief does within the Republic. However I do not know enough on how the decision making process for the entirety of the state works to properly respond to this comment. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/92 "2019-02-24T17:50:35Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > True, the Sanmatar has an important role, however this was a position that he was [offered](https://www.eveonline.com/article/shakor-to-be-named-sanmatar-1). He did not install himself. Further, he allowed both the Nefantir and the Starkmanir [time to sort out](https://www.eveonline.com/article/sanmatar-shakor-delays-tribal-assembly-returned-tribes-need-more-time-1) their process of Electing clan heads and Tribal Chiefs. He did not force a tribal council favorable to him, he did not, he did not speed the process to where certain tribes would be weaker than others, he respected the sovereignty of each Tribe and we now have a full council that properly represents the Tribes. Aaaaah, you’re funny. Yes, the elected Prime Minister—who ran _unopposed_ because his only rival was the person whose government had just collapsed—abolished the office of Prime Minister and established the office Sanmatar with _no idea_ that the Tribal Chiefs he was handing power to would understand how grift and _quid pro quo_ work. And yes, he allowed the Nefantar and Starkmanir time to sort out their own Chiefs. Because he had _so_ many options for doing otherwise, right? What with his position _having no actual executive power_. The man with **no actual executive authority** was so generous in… what, exactly? **He had no authority**. He didn’t do that. The Tribal Council did that, and the Sanmatar, their _mouthpiece_, announced it. But great job giving the spokesman credit for the actions of the people he’s speaking for. > [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > Yes, but now it’s legal for that Seb trade clan to not ask permission, where as before it was circumventing regulations. It was? When? ---
**Author:** ![Seraphea\_Vellastraan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/seraphea_vellastraan/32/297158_2.png) [@Seraphea\_Vellastraan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Seraphea_Vellastraan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 6:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/93 "2019-02-24T18:15:31Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > Further, he allowed both the Nefantir and the Starkmanir [time to sort out](https://www.eveonline.com/article/sanmatar-shakor-delays-tribal-assembly-returned-tribes-need-more-time-1) their process of Electing clan heads and Tribal Chiefs. I resent the idea that we were allowed anything. We’re free now and have no master to rule over us. We took the time we needed on what was our first actual choice of our lives to get it right. I like the Sanmatar, but this isn’t helping the point. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/94 "2019-02-24T18:24:32Z")
Given the context, I understand, and apologize for my choice of words. Perhaps it would be better to say that he recognized their need chose to support their effort? The underlying point i was trying to make was that he had the opportunity to proceed with the Tribal council and pressure the returning tribes into making a hasty decision but instead chose not to interfere. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 6:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/95 "2019-02-24T18:57:11Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > he had the opportunity to proceed with the Tribal council Really? Under what authority? The _Tribal Council_ had the opporunity to proceed. They chose not to. And they had him tell everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/96 "2019-02-24T18:59:04Z")
Then is your point to say that Tribal Council has power over the actions of the Sanmatar? ---
**Author:** ![Seraphea\_Vellastraan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/seraphea_vellastraan/32/297158_2.png) [@Seraphea\_Vellastraan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Seraphea_Vellastraan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/97 "2019-02-24T19:01:45Z")
That’s how it’s supposed to work, except in times of emergency, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/98 "2019-02-24T19:26:01Z")
My point is to say that Shakor’s power, and the power of his position, is in peddling influence and access to the Council. He has their ears, and can push his agenda with no accountability, as—unlike the Prime Minister’s position—he is not answerable to the people, only to the Council. In official matters, he has no authority to set policy. He cannot decide when the Assembly will convene. He cannot tell any part of government what to do. In official matters, he has no power. The power he has is far subtler, and far less trustworthy, because it is the power of whispered words in private, where no-one can see, going into the ears of those who make the final decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 3:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/99 "2019-02-25T03:25:18Z")
This is true, people listen to Shakor. The Tribal Chiefs take his council. That is his job. But he has no power to directly influence the decision making of the each Chief, or do you believe your own Chief to be so easily susceptible. The point remains that is is the Tribal Council, not that Sanmatar that decides policy. If they so chose, the council can _replace_ the Sanmatar. And you are correct, the Sanmatar is answerable to Council. Each Member of Council is then answerable to their tribes respective clans. Each Clan is answerable to its members. This is clearly a state of affairs that the _people_ agree with. Otherwise you would see protests coming from the Clan level up. I fail to see the problem you are trying to point out. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 4:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345/100 "2019-02-25T04:04:51Z")
Would you? Why would you think that? Are we the Gallente, to form angry mobs, yammering in the streets over the slightest discontent? Think of everything it took to produce protests against Midular. And _that_ was when we were _trying_ to be like the Federation. Now? I think that open protest, like so much else that they encouraged, is something we would rather swallow than employ. As for the ‘problem’… the problem I’ve been addressing is your simultaneous ‘Shakor is great because he did X and Y and Z and fifteen hundred other things! Shakor made the economy great! Shakor fixed everything’ with ‘oh, he’s just a servant of the Council’. Either _he’s_ doing these things, or the _Council_ is. If it’s the Council, then _he_ shouldn’t be getting feted and sucked up to like you’ve been doing in this thread. As for ‘The Tribal Chiefs take his council[sic]. That is his job.’ Mmmm, no, it’s not. His job is _not_ to be an adviser _or_ a counselor. His job is to be a mediator and a spokesperson. Not an advocate. Not a policy-maker. He’s not the Brutor Chief. He shouldn’t be giving his Tribe a _second_ advocate in Council. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shakors-reign/141345.md?page=6)