# Ship/Cargo Scanner to give penalty e.g. suspect timer **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Tags:** game-mechanics, modules\ **Created:** [June 17, 2018, 10:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572 "2018-06-17T10:36:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2018, 9:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/374 "2018-07-04T09:26:38Z")
> [@Qia\_Kare](#): > > . Now you have to distinguish between when using a cargo scanner is legal, and when it is a suspect level offense. By analogy with the tracking disruptor, you have to distinguish when using it on rats is legal, and using on players/stations is illegal. That does not make it an issue ? ---
**Author:** ![Qia\_Kare](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/qia_kare/32/279281_2.png) [@Qia\_Kare](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Qia_Kare)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2018, 9:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/375 "2018-07-04T09:48:32Z")
Crimewatch deals specifically with player to player interaction. Player to NPC interactions being treated as equivalent is impractical either way I might choose to implement it. Either we never flag anyone for attacking a player at all, because we do not flag them for attacking NPCs, or we flag every player for attacking NPC ships because we flag them when we attack a player. In the event that being consistent introduces a massive problem of this nature, it is preferable to allow the inconsistency or added complexity. I do not think of cargo scanners as a massive problem, however, but rather as a healthy part of game balance. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_B\_Thiesant](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ryan_b_thiesant/32/293156_2.png) [@Ryan\_B\_Thiesant](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ryan_B_Thiesant)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2018, 10:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/376 "2018-07-04T10:22:56Z")
> [@Qia\_Kare](#): > > This debate seems to hinge on a cargo scanner being used on a ship expressing some kind of evil intent followed by some back and forth over to what extent one can express a potentially evil intention with their eyes before getting a suspect flag. Can you express it to the point of peering inside a ship? Inside a Mobile Tractor Unit? Inside a Secure Container? A Jetcan? > > This is the very essence of a slippery slope, in my opinion. Wherever you slide the indicator, it will be logical and reasonable sounding to inch it over one more step. > > “Because it trespasses the hull” is applicable to all of these things, and that is why it doesn’t make a rational argument in the distinction between why a jetcan is ok to look into, and a freighter is not. A person looking into a jetcan might steal. A person looking into a freighter might gank it. Until a theft or gank actually happens, though, nobody gets any flags. > > The game allows you to peer into any of these things. For jetcans it’s a simple matter of proximity, for ships, a module is required. The mode is different, but the effect is the same, and the game consistently does not flag you as suspect for only looking, regardless of the mode employed to peek. > > This proposal changes that. If this goes into effect, looking is sometimes going to get you flagged, and sometimes not. No longer will you be able to simply tell a newbie that looking at something will never get you flagged. Now you have to distinguish between when using a cargo scanner is legal, and when it is a suspect level offense. > > On the flip side, hitting someone with a tracking disruptor always flags the firing player criminal in high sec. There are no exceptions for the source or target ship’s fitting. Simple, clean, consistent and easy to explain to the uninitiated. > > This frame of reference doesn’t rely on morals, or judgement calls. It doesn’t require any splitting of hairs on how much looking (or tracking disruption) is suspicious (or criminal), and I think that’s the better way to be. > > _(Apologies to Omnathious Deninard for replying to him directly. I had meant to make this a general reply when the content of it changed while I was composing it.)_ Let’s compare Apples with Apples, to guess what an orange is. (bait title) I agree with your interpretation of said facts, and you raise good points about cans that I have covered (somewhere 0\_o ) except for one thing the “flotsum” are unpiloted. If you reconsider that a piloted craft has diffrent rights, then your argument interesting but not complete. I do not think a piloted ship has the same rights as a can or wrec, which you can peer into. Here comes a trues story. A long long time ago a new than noob capsuleer exciting undocked in a tristan. Lets call him Ryan B Thiesant. He had just bought a tristan and fitted, finally. In the sytem he saw a cooler ship (caldari rookie ship lol), just floating in space. And when he hovered his curser over it he could see an icon of little man with an arrow on his head. He figure out how to get out of his ship and into the new ship. He flew it back to base. Ryan had fallen for a scam, maybe, or stole an after gank ship. end of story. CPP makes a big distinction between piloted ships and non piloted ships. Did you notice I did not get a suspect timer for stealling a ship in space? In fact a can has more rights than an unpiloted ship! So back to the redefinition: Anything that penetrates or “moves through” the piloted ship of another capsuleer without permission, and that can not be readily seen, should recieve a supect time. A piloted craft is their sanctum proted by . If a craft is un piloted craft is in space ---
**Author:** ![Qia\_Kare](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/qia_kare/32/279281_2.png) [@Qia\_Kare](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Qia_Kare)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2018, 6:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/378 "2018-07-04T18:42:56Z")
The idea of ownership is pretty intrinsic to an item you can be flagged for stealing from, and if one can make a case that ‘looking into my ship’ should be illegal, then one can, and someday will, make the case that ‘looking into my jetcan should be illegal’. Natural law can be disputed with facts, but crime watch is more akin to criminal justice in that these laws arise from the judgement of a human being or group of human beings. This relies on the experience, values, and reasoning of those people to decide where the lines of law are drawn. I do not maintain that your judgement, values, or reasoning contain some fundamental flaw that would make any of them objectively wrong. What I believe is that this will not address the proposed problem, and that in the future we will see another thread which uses the reasoning ‘you can’t scan _my_ ship, so you should not be able to scan _my_ cans without going suspect’, and that it will be iterated on indefinitely until someone says ‘no’. When I consider those participating in the discussion, there aren’t any who seem excited to hunt scouts. What I think I see are people who hope that someone else will hunt scouts so they don’t have to deal with problems that arise from overloading a freighter. I’m skeptical that a significant portion of the player base would take time to exploit this change, even if the scouts can’t escape. I am also skeptical that seeing such inexpensive killmails would generate much in the way of satisfaction or excitement to continue the trend in the event such a trend were to start. I will not say you are wrong, or that your argument doesn’t make sense. Our reasoning, experience, values, and judgement lead us to different conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Ildrara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ildrara/32/56659_2.png) [@Ildrara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ildrara)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/379 "2018-07-04T19:46:02Z")
> [@Qia\_Kare](#): > > there aren’t any who seem excited to hunt scouts. Ever been to a trade hub and see someone go suspect? In your experience how long do they last? In my experience they don’t last more than 10 seconds. ---
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/380 "2018-07-04T19:49:15Z")
> [@Qia\_Kare](#): > > This proposal changes that. If this goes into effect, looking is sometimes going to get you flagged, and sometimes not. No longer will you be able to simply tell a newbie that looking at something will never get you flagged. Now you have to distinguish between when using a cargo scanner is legal, and when it is a suspect level offense. I have reason to disagree with this that is very simple. Using a cargo scanner will make you suspect. Not using one will not. I will include using it on objects in space which are NOT owned by players. Thus people using cargo scanners on relic sites to find the best loot will go suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Deveron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/max_deveron/32/245870_2.png) [@Max\_Deveron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Max_Deveron)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/381 "2018-07-06T15:57:44Z")
the consistency or inconsistency of things is this: 1 action does not require an active module(ie, opening/looking into a jette container) 1 action requires the a player to actively activate a module. Now activating a module on another player in most cases results in suspect or criminal flagging. Cargo and Ship scanners are exempt from this because…why? I still support the idea of them causing a suspect flag, and yeah that goes for explorers scanning cans in a site to cherry pick as well. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/382 "2018-07-06T16:00:54Z")
> [@Max\_Deveron](#): > > Now activating a module on another player in most cases results in suspect or criminal flagging. > Cargo and Ship scanners are exempt from this because…why? Because they do not have any effect on the target. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Gideon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marcus_gideon/32/141713_2.png) [@Marcus\_Gideon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marcus_Gideon)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/383 "2018-07-06T16:32:00Z")
> [@Max\_Deveron](#): > > Now activating a module on another player **_in most cases_** results in suspect or criminal flagging. > Cargo and Ship scanners are exempt from this because…why? Highlighted the flaw in your logic. “In most cases”, because most cases involve activating an aggressive, harmful module against another player. Shooting them is harmful, scrambling them is harmful, tracking disruption is harmful (even if they don’t have turrets, the module itself is the aggressor). Remote reps do not harm the other player. And they don’t cause you to Flag unless the target was already Flagged for something else. Scanners do not affect the target player in any way. They do not feel any effects of being scanned. What they do feel the effects of, is being shot at afterwards. And guns… already cause Flags. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 6:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/384 "2018-07-06T18:06:04Z")
> [@Marcus\_Gideon](#): > > And they don’t cause you to Flag unless the target was already Flagged for something else. Wrong. you get a suspect if you rep someone in a duel, wether or not he had a flag. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Gideon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marcus_gideon/32/141713_2.png) [@Marcus\_Gideon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marcus_Gideon)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/385 "2018-07-06T18:18:02Z")
[https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Timers#Limited\_Engagement\_Timer](https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Timers#Limited_Engagement_Timer) Duels are a form of Flag, just between the two combatants. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/386 "2018-07-06T18:28:02Z")
yes, but in your quote he says “suspect or criminal flag”, thus we were talking about getting suspect|criminal flag. The point is, that suspect can appear even when using non-aggressive modules on non suspect|criminal ppl. Other than that, > [@Marcus\_Gideon](#): > > They do not feel any effects of being scanned. They don’t even feel the effect it someone takes items from a can they did not have opened before. especially if they already left the battle field and completed the mission. ---
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 6:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/387 "2018-07-06T18:33:23Z")
> [@Salt\_Foambreaker](#): > > Because they do not have any effect on the target. If a cargo scanner had no effect on a target why use it? ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Gideon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marcus_gideon/32/141713_2.png) [@Marcus\_Gideon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marcus_Gideon)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 6:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/388 "2018-07-06T18:53:54Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > yes, but in your quote he says “suspect or criminal flag”, thus we were talking about getting suspect|criminal flag. > > The point is, that suspect can appear even when using non-aggressive modules on non suspect|criminal ppl. > > Other than that, > > > [@Marcus\_Gideon](#): > > > > They do not feel any effects of being scanned. > > They don’t even feel the effect it someone takes items from a can they did not have opened before. especially if they already left the battle field and completed the mission. Repping a couple of duelists causes a Flag b/c you’re interfering with a Concord sanctioned fight. Harmlessly scanning a ship’s cargo or fit is HARMLESS. Stop pretending you are offended by being scanned, and admit that you are offended by being shot. And then admit that shooting causes a Flag, and stop beating this dead horse. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/389 "2018-07-06T19:42:29Z")
> [@Marcus\_Gideon](#): > > Repping a couple of duelists causes a Flag b/c you’re interfering with a Concord sanctioned fight. No. This gives suspect flag because balance. That’s an arbitrary choice of what is balanced or not, CCP could as well allow neutral alts to rep without getting flagged. > [@Marcus\_Gideon](#): > > Stop pretending you are offended Stop pretending I am pretending. Looting cans does not harm the player, yet it does give suspect, so your argument of “doing harm” is invalid. ---
**Author:** ![Sepheir\_Sepheron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sepheir_sepheron/32/279597_2.png) [@Sepheir\_Sepheron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sepheir_Sepheron)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/390 "2018-07-06T19:46:46Z")
Dead horse? Lol I think I posted this idea a couple weeks ago or something and it’s almost at 400 replies. Also if this becomes real I’m gonna lmfao ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Gideon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marcus_gideon/32/141713_2.png) [@Marcus\_Gideon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marcus_Gideon)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/391 "2018-07-06T20:18:20Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > > [@Marcus\_Gideon](#): > > > > Repping a couple of duelists causes a Flag b/c you’re interfering with a Concord sanctioned fight. > > No. This gives suspect flag because balance. That’s an arbitrary choice of what is balanced or not, CCP could as well allow neutral alts to rep without getting flagged. No, they couldn’t allow neutral reps b/c then the fight would not be fair. They flag anyone attempting to interfere in the duel b/c that’s cheating. > [@Marcus\_Gideon](#): > > Stop pretending you are offended > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Stop pretending I am pretending. Looting cans does not harm the player, yet it does give suspect, so your argument of “doing harm” is invalid. Stealing from someone’s container is a crime, and hence the Flag for theft. Scanning someone’s fit or cargo is HARMLESS… HARMLESS… HARMLESS… ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/392 "2018-07-06T20:33:53Z")
So we are to the point where you can’t read what I wrote properly and will just repeat the same nonse. Okay, that was fast, bye. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Gideon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/marcus_gideon/32/141713_2.png) [@Marcus\_Gideon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Marcus_Gideon)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/393 "2018-07-06T20:55:47Z")
Clearly I read what you wrote, b/c I quoted it back to you. Stealing is a crime, and so you get Flagged. Shooting people is a crime, and so you get Flagged. Scanning people is not a crime, and so you do not get Flagged. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2018, 2:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572/395 "2018-07-07T02:48:39Z")
> [@MinerArt](#): > > Might want a real argument next time. It was true the first time he said it… [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572.md?page=18) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ship-cargo-scanner-to-give-penalty-e-g-suspect-timer/83572.md?page=20)