# Shooting player’s spaceships in EvE is not toxic behavior **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 7, 2022, 4:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137 "2022-09-07T16:04:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2022, 1:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/649 "2022-09-19T13:28:56Z")
1. No you don’t get your pieces back in chess 2. you have to train SEVERAL special skills to play chess , calculation , positional awareness , openings , end game , etc ,etc 3. "_There are more_ possible games of _Chess than atoms in the Universe_ " ---
**Author:** ![Ferdiad\_Silver](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ferdiad_silver/32/331325_2.png) [@Ferdiad\_Silver](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ferdiad_Silver)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2022, 8:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/650 "2022-09-20T08:13:05Z")
> [@tutucox\_Khamsi](#): > > "_There are more_ possible games of _Chess than atoms in the Universe_ " I’m not going to claim to have done the maths but this feels like hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_the_flame/32/490165_2.png) [@Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_the_Flame)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2022, 8:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/651 "2022-09-20T08:17:28Z")
Quick google ninja brought this up: > **[Which is greater? The number of atoms in the universe or the number of chess...](https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/stories/which-greater-number-of-atoms-universe-or-number-of-chess-moves)** > > The question came from Claude Shannon, inventor of ‘Information Theory’ in 1948. The theory uses mathematics to understand the rules governing the transmission of messages through communication systems, applicable to everything... > There are between 1078 to 1082 atoms in the observable universe. That’s between ten quadrillion vigintillion and one-hundred thousand quadrillion vigintillion atoms. Which is a lot. But…amazingly, there are even more possible variations of chess games than there are atoms in the observable universe. > > This is the **Shannon Number** and represents all of the possible move variations in the game of chess. It is estimated there are between 10111 and 10123 positions (including illegal moves) in Chess. (If you rule out illegal moves that number drops dramatically to 1040 moves. Which is still a lot!). ---
**Author:** ![Ferdiad\_Silver](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ferdiad_silver/32/331325_2.png) [@Ferdiad\_Silver](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ferdiad_Silver)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2022, 8:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/652 "2022-09-20T08:21:25Z")
> [@Uriel\_the\_Flame](#): > > Which is a lot. But…amazingly, there are even more possible variations of chess games than there are atoms in the observable universe. Aha so it’s observable. Again, I’ve not looked up the science but I didn’t think we knew exactly how big the universe was hence why I said it felt like hyperbole. Thanks for looking this up though \<3 ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2022, 9:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/653 "2022-09-20T09:26:34Z")
> [@Ferdiad\_Silver](#): > > I’m not going to claim to have done the maths but this feels like hyperbole. for what i researched this include illegal moves them is more than the atoms in the universe with only legal moves is way less , but still about 2x10^40 @Uriel_the_Flame didn’t saw your post but there is also wiki > **[Shannon number](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_number)** > > The Shannon number, named after the American mathematician Claude Shannon, is a conservative lower bound of the game-tree complexity of chess of 10120, based on an average of about 103 possibilities for a pair of moves consisting of a move for White followed by a move for Black, and a typical game lasting about 40 such pairs of moves. > Shannon showed a calculation for the lower bound of the game-tree complexity of chess, resulting in about 10120 possible games, to demonstrate the impracticality o... ---
**Author:** ![Ultra\_Shakira](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ultra_shakira/32/333170_2.png) [@Ultra\_Shakira](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ultra_Shakira)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 7:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/654 "2022-09-23T19:29:55Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > OK, so teach them that. But what’s wrong with some choosing to just do that and not > wanting to do anything else Because this is not a single player PVE game and we don’t play in a vacuum (ok we do but that’s not the point) Nothing wrong with only wanting to do one thing, but you can’t pretend other players don’t exist, it’s an MMO. Not just any MMO, this is an open world always on PVP game where PVE is arguably there to supply income to keep the shooting going. You just don’t join a game infamous for being difficult and dangerous where people are allowed to kill you anywhere (under certain conditions) and complain when players do just that. If you want to do PVE without fear of being killed by another player, play on Sisi, play Eve Echoes, play another game that supports your play style there are plenty out there. But don’t jump in the pool and complain about getting wet. ---
**Author:** ![T\_Elliot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/t_elliot/32/453851_2.png) [@T\_Elliot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/T_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 7:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/656 "2022-09-23T19:45:12Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Yawn. This is not Fortnite. “Always on PvP” does not mean that every single part of the game has to be susceptible to combat PvP, because PvP doesn’t just mean “combat”. But that is what EvE was and is. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s not difficult or dangerous though. It takes pretty much no actual ability to play EVE. People made up the myth that it’s difficult and dangerous so they could say “It’s difficult and Then why all the whining and crying about how “there is no counter play to ganking”. “It is over powered!” “The big gankers and griefers can’t be countered and scare away the new bros.” You can’t have this both ways Lucas. Either EvE is cake, and then there is no problem with ganking, or ganking is a horrible unstoppable juggernaut from which there is no hope or salvation. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Alternatively I’ll push for this sandbox game to focus on entertaining mechanics rather than pander to a group of people who have only really existed in their current form for the last decade. When I joined new players didn’t really get ganked, it wasn’t a thing. It’s only a thing now because griefers from other games have figured out they can come here and grief The game as it stands very entertaining. EvE is my favorite MMO. The one I quit, then always come back to. I love it because it is always non consensual PVP all the time. If you ever got a chance to chip away at that, then you would ruin the game. There are a host of other MMO’s where all one does is grind away at PvE. EvE will not survive if you make it one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Kell](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lucas_kell/32/393556_2.png) [@Lucas\_Kell](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lucas_Kell)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 7:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/657 "2022-09-23T19:55:58Z")
(post deleted by author) ---
**Author:** ![Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sasha_nemtsov/32/393707_2.png) [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sasha_Nemtsov)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 8:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/658 "2022-09-23T20:08:11Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It takes pretty much no actual ability to play EVE I’m pretty awful at EVE, so your statement, if valid, means I’m even worse at the bloody game than I thought! Of course, you can play EVE at my quite lowly level and still have a good time; but in order to become _good_ at it, you will need to be able to absorb a fair amount of information and apply it in a practical way. My excuse is that I will not steal time from things that matter a great deal to me to spend on things which do not. (No, and I’m not entirely convinced by that, either…) ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 8:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/659 "2022-09-23T20:13:36Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Yawn. This is not Fortnite. “Always on PvP” does not mean that every single part of the game has to be susceptible to combat PvP, because PvP doesn’t just mean “combat”. It does actually. Also yennnoe Fortnite and EVE are two different genres of gaming right? I swear, you boomers are so cute 😃 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s not difficult or dangerous though. It takes pretty much no actual ability to play EVE. People made up the myth that it’s difficult and dangerous so they could say “It’s difficult and dangerous and I play it therefore I must be really good at games”. It’s nonsense. So ganking isn’t a problem then according to you, cause EVE isn’t dangerous. Got it 😃 You realize when you say this, you basically defeat your other point right? ROFL. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Alternatively I’ll push for this sandbox game to focus on entertaining mechanics rather than pander to a group of people who have only really existed in their current form for the last decade. When I joined new players didn’t really get ganked, it wasn’t a thing. It’s only a thing now because griefers from other games have figured out they can come here and grief without getting banned. Mm no bruv. Its a thing now cause other players, like you are doing, cried to daddy CCP and got war decs nerfed. Cause in the past, you’d just dec people and blap. That went away. Then alpha accounts and bingo. Its very easy to see how ganking in the current form came to be. And just as easily to see it is the player’s fault. > [@T\_Elliot](#): > > The game as it stands very entertaining. EvE is my favorite MMO. The one I quit, then always come back to. I love it because it is always non consensual PVP all the time. If you ever got a chance to chip away at that, then you would ruin the game. There are a host of other MMO’s where all one does is grind away at PvE. EvE will not survive if you make it one of them. Careful, according to Lucas you can never quit EVE 😃 I mean he lacks the willpower to do so, so > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > No it’s not. The Earth keeps getting flatter all the time huh? 😃 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Because that’s what they do. It’s not hard to avoid ganks but new players inevitably don’t know how yet, so before they get a chance to decide if they like the game some pillock comes along and kills them then drags them into a chat to berate them. Yet you refuse to help the nubs by giving them these tactics that help you avoid them. I wonder why 😃 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > But then you’ve demonstrated that you ride the special bus to school so what you like and what the market CCP needs to attract likes are two totally different things. Hell, you think hauling is entertaining. Huh. I thought you didn’t fling personal insults? Interesting. Also quoting this so you can’t delete later 😃 Also oof, that really outdated mode of thinking def shows you’re a boomer. Imagining throwing that kind of bigotry around. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Hell, you think hauling is entertaining. Oh it can be. You just aren’t doing it right 😃 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Some of us are talking about removing or limiting one single form of PvP in on single area of space. That’s how it starts bruv 😃 It never ends that way 😃 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > the new EVE server in China where there is no ganking will likely prove that out. Mmm not really. I already know what it will prove. It’s been tried before in the early 2000s. You really gotta play other MMOs my guy 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sasha_nemtsov/32/393707_2.png) [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sasha_Nemtsov)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 8:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/660 "2022-09-23T20:17:28Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > you’ve demonstrated that you ride the special bus to school ? ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 8:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/661 "2022-09-23T20:19:52Z")
Remember tho, he doesn’t sling personal insults 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 8:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/663 "2022-09-23T20:57:54Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s not like you need any twitch reactions or the micro/macro management abilities you need for RTS games or anything. This tells me, more than anything, you got no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to PvP or combat 😃 You should have led with this and shown everyone how not credible you are 😃 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > He’s in another thread with me talking about basements, Sun Tzu and dreidels. It’s a wild ride. So you then decided to throw a personal insult and abelist slur? Interesting 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sasha_nemtsov/32/393707_2.png) [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sasha_Nemtsov)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 9:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/664 "2022-09-23T21:07:00Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I genuinely don’t know how it’s possible to be bad at EVE. It’s a question of priorities. Yes, all the information is available, in various forms, and I have used about as much of it as I need for what I like to do in the game, at a basic level. I _could_ aim for ‘expert’ status, but I’ve no appetite for that. Perhaps I’m lazy? Probably a bit of that; but I do spend a fair amount of time out-of-game absorbed in things which really are important to me, and so, when I fire up the EVE launcher, I’m not looking for a particularly deep experience. I’m bad at EVE because I won’t devote to it the time required to ‘git gud’. Also, I don’t do ‘numbers’. On-topic: I shoot spaceships in a very non-toxic way. And if I _do_ invite folks to chat in Local or privately, my conversation is always free from obscenity and ridicule. Which, however, rarely pacifies the target… ---
**Author:** ![T\_Elliot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/t_elliot/32/453851_2.png) [@T\_Elliot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/T_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 9:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/666 "2022-09-23T21:25:18Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > No it’s not. Yes, it really is. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Because that’s what they do. It’s not hard to avoid ganks but new players inevitably don’t know how yet, so before they get a chance to decide if they like the game some pillock comes along and kills them then drags them into a chat to berate them. And I have a fat cat that needs to loose weight, but he always thinks it is lunch time. I tell him no, its not lunch time yet, and then ignore his whines. It is a pain in the but, but he likes to kill mice, and has got a fuzzy tummy, so its worth it. Why do you want to drastically change the nature of EvE and chase off a large number of current players to chase potential new players who may or may not play the game? Wouldn’t education and teaching them be better than softening the game and slowly removing its appeal? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Completely false. Well for you it is, but you have these fluid and dynamic definitiosn of words in your head. For the people outside of your inner monologue it is true. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Noone is suggesting EVE become PvE only. Some of us are talking about removing or limiting one single form of PvP in on single area of space. I think that it’s completely feasible to have a game that caters to players who prefer PvE and to player who enjoy PvP, and the new EVE server in China where there is no ganking will likely prove that out. But you are suggesting that we remove a form of PVP that has been in the game for over a decade, that gives High Sec space a sense of excitement and adventure, and many people, gankers and non gankers alike enjoy, for the sake of people who you yourself admit just don’t know the score yet. Educating the new bros is the answer, not nerfing a large part of the game. You want to destroy the only thing that keeps high sec from being a mindless high sec, and does not really benefit new bros, who just need some education. ---
**Author:** ![T\_Elliot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/t_elliot/32/453851_2.png) [@T\_Elliot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/T_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 9:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/668 "2022-09-23T21:39:42Z")
> [@Gix\_Firebrand](#): > > He’s already now trying to self correct and again be the “rational” poster. > > He realized he got too emotional and butthurt, and is trying to compensate. > > But the dude doesn’t even understand manual flying 😃 > > Its funny he accuses others of being an F1 monkey but its plain to see he is. > > Thank goodness I never did much in null 😃 Well you know, Lucas taught me that words have fluid definitions, and it is just us dumb hick Americans that still believe that words have meanings. 🙂 Good flying Gix, and good luck here man. you have more patience than I do. ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 10:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/671 "2022-09-23T22:47:12Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s not a drastic change, it’s not the nature of EVE and it wouldn’t chase off many players. There’s actually only a small - but incredibly vocal - group of players that actually think ganking is the be-all and end-all of EVE. It actually isn’t ganking we’re defending bruv. Once you change it from an open PvP world where you consent to PvP as soon as you undock, its no longer EVE. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > So your plan is to make it so new bros know about ganking so they avoid being ganked, so ganking is still functionally removed from the game, but without moving it You’re saying as if once you know how to counter a gank, you’ll do it 100% of the time. That simply isn’t true LOL. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > And somehow you’re going to force this learning on players who already leave the game because it’s dull. Seems like a futile endeavour but by all means, educate away. You just said EVE is easy and its easy to Google stuff to learn 😃 Now its too hard to learn? Which is it 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Wes\_Wyhunnan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wes_wyhunnan/32/409400_2.png) [@Wes\_Wyhunnan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wes_Wyhunnan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 10:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/672 "2022-09-23T22:59:00Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > But then you’ve demonstrated that you ride the special bus to school so what you like and what the market CCP needs There it is. I was waiting for the one quote where I could finally write you off as a trash human. Found it. My son actually has a bus that picks him up and takes him to school. So your version is that he is what? Exactly? Go ahead, say it. Don’t edit your post, don’t delete it. Say exactly what you mean. I want to hear it. What, exactly, does that imply to you? ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 11:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/673 "2022-09-23T23:05:18Z")
> [@Wes\_Wyhunnan](#): > > There it is. I was waiting for the one quote where I could finally write you off as a trash human. Found it. My son actually has a bus that picks him up and takes him to school. So your version is that he is what? Exactly? Go ahead, say it. Don’t edit your post, don’t delete it. Say exactly what you mean. I want to hear it. What, exactly, does that imply to you? He knows, so he’s been avoiding me and trying to back pedal 😃 Now he’s attempting to be the “calm and rational” poster again. Its always when he gets backed into a corner by his own ROFLcopter that he lashes out with some truly awful stuff. But he’s done it before on different alts. ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 11:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137/675 "2022-09-23T23:18:56Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > The fact that you sit around hoping to stumble across a sentence you can use to disregard anything I say while you happily nod along to people lobbing insults every other comment kinda suggests you’re not much better. Mmm I’m pretty sure it is the nature of your insult bruv. At the most we call you daft, a boomer and bad at EVE. All true really. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s strange that you support griefers My guy, you’re a literal griefer 😃 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > And just so you know, if you had just pointed out that you were offended and asked for an apology, you’d have got it. Instead you’re trying to weaponise this quasi-offensive offhand remark as some justification for continuing the same dismissive position you already held. Sure bro 😃 We’re still waiting on the ship fit, the guide, the data, etc. I’m pretty sure we’d still be waiting on the apology as well. Its ok. As Wes said, you revealed yourself again as an absolute trash panda on this alt too 😃 [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137.md?page=24) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/shooting-player-s-spaceships-in-eve-is-not-toxic-behavior/376137.md?page=26)