# So I made a new character. It was eye opening **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [May 10, 2023, 6:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182 "2023-05-10T18:48:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 10:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/463 "2023-05-19T10:02:26Z")
New players should be invulnerable for their first 30 years. PvP drives new players away, and IDDQD god mode no clip is necessary for modern gamers. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 10:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/464 "2023-05-19T10:03:21Z")
Man, you spout a lot of 💩… Need rubber boots and shovel when reading your replies… ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 10:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/465 "2023-05-19T10:08:38Z")
> [@Nienna\_Nannie](#): > > You are exaggerating in the other direction and you know well that is not what I am discussing. I am taking a principled approach. I am using the same exact rhetoric and logic that was presented to me prior. We came full circle with me copypasta-ing a response from 100+posts ago to you again. If you don’t like how I am using your arguments now, then consider doing better. > [@Nienna\_Nannie](#): > > The Skill Queue is a problem for retention. This is an opinion, not fact, with no data to back it up. There are plenty of anecdotes, and I have about 10+ years worth of those. You present opinions, there are counter-opinions. Eventually it hits repeat, I take the opinion on a principled stand (what you call “exaggeration”). If neither the counter-opinions nor the parody opinions can break through to your closed mind, then there’s no more discussion to really be had, is there? ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/516281_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 10:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/466 "2023-05-19T10:11:57Z")
You guys are not consequent enough. Thats all nonsense. We need two major changes: 1st: Skill Based Match Making and Leagues™ Every player is put into a league based on his kills/losses ratio. And is completely invisible and untouchable in space for all players outsite of his own league. That way no one is ever again cannonfodder for some overpowered Veteran! 2nd: GROUND LOOT! Yes! Why bother wasting time with a market. You have to wait for someone to sell the stuff you need or even waste time traveling to somewhere where you can buy it. NO! CCP END THIS! Just let free ships, completely fitted with Pro-Fits and Ammo and everything you need spawn at every moon, belt, planet, gate. And if you need something, just warp there and grab it and back to the fight! Like other games do it! Instant Action! Please! Make EVE like every other game out there! ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 10:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/467 "2023-05-19T10:12:04Z")
> [@Nienna\_Nannie](#): > > You are exaggerating in the other direction Sounds like someone needs a class on rhetoric. > **[Reductio ad Absurdum](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/cgi-bin/uy/webpages.cgi?%2Flogicalfallacies%2FReductio-ad-Absurdum)** > > A mode of argumentation or a form of argument in which a proposition is disproven by following its implications logically to an absurd conclusion. Arguments which use universals such as, “always”, “never”, “everyone”, “nobody”, etc., are prone to... ---
**Author:** ![Nienna\_Nannie](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nienna_nannie/32/373656_2.png) [@Nienna\_Nannie](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nienna_Nannie)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 10:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/468 "2023-05-19T10:15:01Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > This is an opinion, not fact, with no data to back it up. There are plenty of anecdotes, and I have about 10+ years worth of those I think 3/4th of the player base gone is enough data. > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > You present opinions, there are counter-opinions. Eventually it hits repeat, I take the opinion on a principled stand (what you call “exaggeration”). If neither the counter-opinions nor the parody opinions can break through to your closed mind, then there’s no more discussion to really be had, is there You are mixing everything up. I didn’t call your whole post 'ridiculous". All your arguments fail to convince me that the Skill Queue isn’t a gimmick and that the game wouldn’t be better without it. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 10:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/469 "2023-05-19T10:16:42Z")
Our AD&D gamemaster used to force us to level up, before we could become gods, but this was no fun and too difficult for new players, so we removed all the gatekeeping timesinks and start every campaign with unlimited power and ability. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/516281_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 10:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/470 "2023-05-19T10:16:45Z")
Oh, and I totally forgot the 3rd Upgrade: LOADOUTS! Everytime you blow up, you _instantly_ rewarp into battle with a free ship of your choice (yes you can build and save that free loadout ship on a station before you undock and then you can use it forever and ever and ever and ever). Isn’t that great? Imagine the space battles! Dozens… ah, HUNDREDS of players just constantly warping into the ball of fire and BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM LASERS MISSILES EXPLOSIONS for hours and hours. So exciting! And nobody really lost anything. No frustration. No waiting. Repeatable from Login to Logoff. What a GREAT IMAGINATION! ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 10:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/471 "2023-05-19T10:18:05Z")
Why should new players have to login to win? They should get winmails in their email. CCP can save money by closing the server and just sending free wins to all. That will increase player retention! _THINK OF THE NEW PLAYERS_ ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 10:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/472 "2023-05-19T10:19:11Z")
> [@Nienna\_Nannie](#): > > I think 3/4th of the player base gone is enough data. This is completely made up. > [@Nienna\_Nannie](#): > > All your arguments fail to convince me that the Skill Queue isn’t a gimmick and that the game wouldn’t be better without it. Sorry. I’m not sorry, it is not a goal of mine to convince people bubble-wrapped in their own echo chamber. Forum readers are smart enough to understand the text and subtext of what’s going on here. ---
**Author:** ![Nienna\_Nannie](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nienna_nannie/32/373656_2.png) [@Nienna\_Nannie](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nienna_Nannie)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 10:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/473 "2023-05-19T10:28:42Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > it is not a goal of mine to convince people bubble-wrapped in their own echo chamber Nor is it mine. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 10:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/474 "2023-05-19T10:30:57Z")
> [@Nienna\_Nannie](#): > > Nor is it mine The difference is no one needed your clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Nienna\_Nannie](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nienna_nannie/32/373656_2.png) [@Nienna\_Nannie](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nienna_Nannie)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 10:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/475 "2023-05-19T10:42:04Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > The difference is no one needed your clarification. I didn’t know how much my position made you mad but I can see now that you are beside yourself. I am sorry if I shattered your romantic idea about EVE but it isn’t perfect and will never be, nothing and no-one is. Maybe you ought to take a deep breath and calm down. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 10:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/476 "2023-05-19T10:45:30Z")
When all else fails, hallucinating that someone else is crying is not the zinger of a personal attack you seem to think it is. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 10:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/477 "2023-05-19T10:47:34Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > When all else fails, hallucinating that someone else is crying is not the zinger of a personal attack you seem to think it is Like this: ![ITrollU](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/e/d/7/ed72ca1c2926ec02f4761c3e653b71cfd1a02a83.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 11:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/478 "2023-05-19T11:07:32Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > You don’t need everything T2 to work well, especially not in a Gila. An alpha newbie could be in a perfectly workable Gila in less than 2 months Yeah, as stated, “long story short”. The guy wasn’t looking for a “workable” Gila, or just barely getting his butt in a T1 fit. It wasn’t a T2 fit either, just decent ship, missile, drone and support skills. He started by asking how to fit ships etc. One or two advisors told him to use Mastery as guide, and that Mastery 1 was “your butt’s in the seat and everything works, but barely”. Master 3 was recommended as “you’ve got a competent build”. (I myself don’t normally point to Mastery lists for a guide.) He checked Mastery 3 and laughed at the training times. So I and another guy helped him trim out the unneeded skills from the Mastery, but also recommended he add a couple Social and Training skills along the way since he was going to be running missions and would need to sell stuff to raise ISK. Yes the 1 million ISK would have helped one time, on one pilot, but we didn’t have that to work with. That’s where the training times come from, not just the ship, weapon and module skills - which is what most people look at when they say “this fit only takes X days”. But the targeting, navigation, agility, armor, shield, engineering skills etc it takes for an actually _decent_ fit. Point being that nowadays when you can stack dozens of skills in the queue to reach some goal, and players look at the training time as their end goal and see weeks, months, possibly even over a year… to reach a reasonable goal. That’s probably not a real retention booster. Much of the forum crowd won’t agree, that’s fine. They’re survivor-biased to think these numbers are ok. The players who _don’t_ think those numbers are fine are off giving their money to games that don’t have interface systems stuck in the 90s. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 11:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/479 "2023-05-19T11:09:36Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > over a year… to reach a reasonable goal. If you think it takes over a year to reach a “reasonable” goal, perhaps the problem is you are not reasonable. New players don’t need a Gila. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 11:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/480 "2023-05-19T11:33:56Z")
That’s not an EVE problem, that’s a “people are stupid” problem. Mostly rom the folks failing to give proper advise to a newbie. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 11:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/481 "2023-05-19T11:41:43Z")
My eyes are getting old, but I always figured they were sisters. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2023, 11:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182/482 "2023-05-19T11:44:11Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > Mostly rom the folks failing to give proper advise to a newbie. Well, tell you what: why don’t you put together a skill plan for a 5-day old player that wants to end up in a Caracal doing security missions and anomalies and maybe something more down the road. It can be T1, but please include all the armor, shield, engineering, navigation, targeting, rigging, missile, drone and any other skills you think would be needed for a decent, well-rounded T1 build. The only thing I recall being T2 in the build we recommended was a DCU II. I’ll have to dig through some old emails and notes I made in the meantime, see if I can re-make the build approximately. And then we can talk facts instead of he said-she said. Or you could just grab a Caracal or a Gila on a new account and take a look at the Mastery 3 training times I guess, since that’s where we started from before cutting out unneeded skills. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182.md?page=23) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/so-i-made-a-new-character-it-was-eye-opening/405182.md?page=25)