# Some empathy for President Aguard **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [November 11, 2022, 3:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049 "2022-11-11T15:16:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Imrik\_Schereau](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/imrik_schereau/32/343151_2.png) [@Imrik\_Schereau](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Imrik_Schereau)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 8:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/21 "2022-11-11T20:30:38Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Has he tried… Diplomacy? Maybe not being a dick to other states? Not calling them enemies? If you are referring to _Madame_ President Celes Aguard, she assumes office after diplomacy has been attempted on many fronts and many times. Several notable attempts at diplomacy: The existence of the Intaki Syndicate, the peace talks that were sabotaged, the demilitarization of Caldari Prime… > [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > What about citizens that were engulfed by Pochven? Did he ever think about those people? My knowledge on the events surrounding the appearance of the Triglavians and the sublimation of other systems into what is now known as Pochven is unfortunately very limited. However, I am under the impression that all of the major nations contributed not only to the defense against incursions but also to humanitarian aid where and when it could be rendered. ---
**Author:** ![Thadius\_Faran](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/thadius_faran/32/374269_2.png) [@Thadius\_Faran](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Thadius_Faran)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 9:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/22 "2022-11-11T21:54:43Z")
Yes that is accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Imrik\_Schereau](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/imrik_schereau/32/343151_2.png) [@Imrik\_Schereau](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Imrik_Schereau)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 10:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/23 "2022-11-11T22:05:58Z")
Thank you for confirming. The difficulty, I believe, stems from a difference in expectation between our two peoples. Would you mind humoring a thought exercise? If not here, then perhaps over FTLC at some point? ---
**Author:** ![Auriga\_Menkalinan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/auriga_menkalinan/32/351666_2.png) [@Auriga\_Menkalinan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Auriga_Menkalinan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 10:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/24 "2022-11-11T22:20:08Z")
Ahh, I see. The events are being compared not connected. Thank you for explaining. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 10:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/25 "2022-11-11T22:35:52Z")
> [@Imrik\_Schereau](#): > > I am under the impression that all of the major nations contributed not only to the defense against incursions Oh ok I guess you were wherever the caps got deployed then because I didnt see them. Did they lose many Titans? > [@Imrik\_Schereau](#): > > but also to humanitarian aid where and when it could be rendered. And same with rescue ships etc in the aftermath. As for diplomacy clearly no. Like all the Powers they are simply an aggressor. Thanks for the update. ---
**Author:** ![Ulysses\_Redmane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysses_redmane/32/410129_2.png) [@Ulysses\_Redmane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ulysses_Redmane)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 5:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/26 "2022-11-12T05:44:26Z")
> [@Auriga\_Menkalinan](#): > > You don’t _think_ your enemy is that crazy but look what happened in Turnur. The interesting thing about the Caldari, from my perspective, is that they’re internally abusive in the same way that the Empire is externally abusive. We all saw the tribes claim two of the transmuters through military action. The Federation just demonstrated that they can come down like a hammer on the Intaki. Maybe Aguard should have put herself in the Chief Executive Panel’s shoes. Would you want your expensive science experiments in an area you can’t control or would you stick it somewhere on the opposite fringe of the State like Olo? I’m not convinced Celes is a tyrant just yet, but her military advisors should be scrutinized more closely. ---
**Author:** ![Imrik\_Schereau](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/imrik_schereau/32/343151_2.png) [@Imrik\_Schereau](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Imrik_Schereau)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2022, 5:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/27 "2022-11-12T05:49:46Z")
> [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > I’m not convinced Celes is a tyrant just yet, but her military advisors should be scrutinized more closely. This is a sound response. ---
**Author:** ![Miran\_Tereven](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/miran_tereven/32/383453_2.png) [@Miran\_Tereven](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Miran_Tereven)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/28 "2022-11-14T00:07:02Z")
> [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > The interesting thing about the Caldari, from my perspective, is that they’re internally abusive in the same way that the Empire is externally abusive. Excuse me? ---
**Author:** ![Ulysses\_Redmane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysses_redmane/32/410129_2.png) [@Ulysses\_Redmane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ulysses_Redmane)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/29 "2022-11-14T00:12:11Z")
> [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > Excuse me? From my interactions with Caldari culture and people I learned very quickly that they are monumentally stoic. They bear their own burden before placing it on others. Where the Amarr would invade Minmatar space and place their stellar transmuters there, the Caldari would very likely do the exact opposite: Place the transmuters within their own space knowing the risks. With the Caldari making decisions I very much doubt the Intaki would have been made subject to these experiments in the same way as the tribes. ---
**Author:** ![Miran\_Tereven](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/miran_tereven/32/383453_2.png) [@Miran\_Tereven](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Miran_Tereven)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/30 "2022-11-14T00:15:45Z")
> [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > From my interactions with Caldari culture and people I learned very quickly that they are monumentally stoic. They bear their own burden before placing it on others. Where the Amarr would invade Minmatar space and place their stellar transmuters there, the Caldari would very likely do the exact opposite: Place the transmuters within their own space knowing the risks. With the Caldari making decisions I very much doubt the Intaki would have been made subject to these experiments in the same way as the tribes. And how does this, in your mind, translates to “internally abusive”? ---
**Author:** ![Ulysses\_Redmane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysses_redmane/32/410129_2.png) [@Ulysses\_Redmane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ulysses_Redmane)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/31 "2022-11-14T00:28:24Z")
> [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > And how does this, in your mind, translates to “internally abusive”? Well let’s explore the hypothetical scenario of the CEP placing a transmuter within a populated Caldari system. If a Turnur situation were to develop the Caldari would most likely declare eminent domain and evict the occupants of that system. Any property they can’t take with them would most likely be lost forever. A restitution program may or may not be instated, but the Caldari would take this risk themselves rather than offload it onto someone else, even if that “someone” were a mortal enemy. In this hypothetical scenario I would qualify the decision as internally abusive. While the State may make efforts to soften the localized economic fallout, that doesn’t change the nature of their decision-making process. Whether it’s right or wrong isn’t for me to judge. Keep in mind that there are always worse alternatives, and I don’t think the State are ethically bankrupt in any fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Miran\_Tereven](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/miran_tereven/32/383453_2.png) [@Miran\_Tereven](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Miran_Tereven)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/32 "2022-11-14T00:32:16Z")
> [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > Well let’s explore the hypothetical scenario of the CEP placing a transmuter within a populated Caldari system. If a Turnur situation were to develop the Caldari would most likely declare eminent domain and evict the occupants of that system. Any property they can’t take with them would most likely be lost forever. A restitution program may or may not be instated, but the Caldari would take this risk themselves rather than offload it onto someone else, even if that “someone” were a mortal enemy. > > In this hypothetical scenario I would qualify the decision as internally abusive. While the State may make efforts to soften the localized economic fallout, that doesn’t change the nature of their decision-making process. Whether it’s right or wrong isn’t for me to judge. Keep in mind that there are always worse alternatives, and I don’t think the State are ethically bankrupt in any fashion. You do understand that by saying that the Caldari are “internally abusive” entails that the Caldari are abusive towards ourselves. Hypothetical scenarios should not be used to make sweeping statements about entire peoples. ---
**Author:** ![Ulysses\_Redmane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysses_redmane/32/410129_2.png) [@Ulysses\_Redmane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ulysses_Redmane)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/33 "2022-11-14T00:33:35Z")
> [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > You do understand that by saying that the Caldari are “internally abusive” entails that the Caldari are abusive towards ourselves. Hypothetical scenarios should not be used to make sweeping statements about entire peoples. Oh I absolutely think the denizens of the State are abusive to themselves. Each citizen bears a burden and many of them do so with gusto, eager to prove that they can handle it. I find it quite admirable. ---
**Author:** ![Auriga\_Menkalinan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/auriga_menkalinan/32/351666_2.png) [@Auriga\_Menkalinan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Auriga_Menkalinan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/34 "2022-11-14T00:36:36Z")
> [@Auriga\_Menkalinan](#): > > Imagine having to make that call… Views on this topic are most welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Miran\_Tereven](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/miran_tereven/32/383453_2.png) [@Miran\_Tereven](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Miran_Tereven)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/35 "2022-11-14T00:36:39Z")
> [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > Oh I absolutely think the denizens of the State are abusive to themselves. Each citizen bears a burden and many of them do so with gusto, eager to prove that they can handle it. I find it quite admirable. Well yes, the difference between the disenfranchised and the citizens is that a citizen makes contributing to our state a personal responsibility. Both to honour the sacrifices of our ancestors, and to provide a better future for our descendants. ---
**Author:** ![Ulysses\_Redmane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysses_redmane/32/410129_2.png) [@Ulysses\_Redmane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ulysses_Redmane)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/36 "2022-11-14T00:43:59Z")
> [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > Well yes, the difference between the disenfranchised and the citizens is that a citizen makes contributing to our state a personal responsibility. Both to honour the sacrifices of our ancestors, and to provide a better future for our descendants. Indeed, and because of that citizens often subject themselves to terrifying work conditions and sometimes outright wage-slavery. There is a cultural drive to simply grin and bear it. I’m not issuing a condemnation of Caldari culture by calling it abusive, but rather recognizing it as a double-edged sword. ---
**Author:** ![Ulysses\_Redmane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysses_redmane/32/410129_2.png) [@Ulysses\_Redmane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ulysses_Redmane)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/37 "2022-11-14T00:56:49Z")
Forgive me, it appears I’ve gone off on a tangent. Speaking for myself: Aguard may have been placed in a position where each choice was loaded. With her military advisors and members of the Senate pushing her toward an act of war inaction may have rendered her unable to accomplish anything at all in the future. Politically speaking the decision to invade Intaki may have been no choice at all, as her power as President is only so useful especially in the long term. It’s hard to pin down exactly what was going on behind the scenes, the exact reasons why Aguard made this decision, or the potential consequences she would have faced if she had not. Worst case scenario there may be political factions that forced her hand. ---
**Author:** ![Auriga\_Menkalinan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/auriga_menkalinan/32/351666_2.png) [@Auriga\_Menkalinan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Auriga_Menkalinan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/38 "2022-11-14T00:58:53Z")
> [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > Worst case scenario there may be political factions that forced her hand. The worst case scenario was outlined in the original post. ---
**Author:** ![Ulysses\_Redmane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysses_redmane/32/410129_2.png) [@Ulysses\_Redmane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ulysses_Redmane)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 1:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/39 "2022-11-14T01:02:40Z")
Are you referencing Celes being placed in the same category as Duvailer? Frankly I would grateful if that were the worst case scenario, a simple overreach of Fed authority inspired by fear. What’s truly freightening is the possibility that the military and political infrastructure of the Federation has been infested with people who _are_ in Duvailer’s bracket and in the process of using their influence to make a crude and violent tool out of the President. ---
**Author:** ![Auriga\_Menkalinan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/auriga_menkalinan/32/351666_2.png) [@Auriga\_Menkalinan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Auriga_Menkalinan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 1:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/40 "2022-11-14T01:11:26Z")
No, the worst case scenario is the destruction of a planet. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049.md?page=3)