# Some empathy for President Aguard **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [November 11, 2022, 3:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049 "2022-11-11T15:16:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ulysses\_Redmane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysses_redmane/32/410129_2.png) [@Ulysses\_Redmane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ulysses_Redmane)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 1:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/41 "2022-11-14T01:12:45Z")
As of now, with the possibility of total war looming on the horizon, the fate of many planets are in jeopardy. I’m not sure if that’s better or worse. ---
**Author:** ![Auriga\_Menkalinan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/auriga_menkalinan/32/351666_2.png) [@Auriga\_Menkalinan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Auriga_Menkalinan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 1:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/42 "2022-11-14T01:14:02Z")
The point is, she was faced with a choice between doing nothing (and being called negligent) and acting (and being called a tyrant). ---
**Author:** ![Ulysses\_Redmane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysses_redmane/32/410129_2.png) [@Ulysses\_Redmane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ulysses_Redmane)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 1:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/43 "2022-11-14T01:25:12Z")
Indeed, though it’s worth noting that the people who created those conditions are safely on the sidelines and remain unidentified. In my opinion there’s something a little suspicious going on underneath the facade of that choice. ---
**Author:** ![Miran\_Tereven](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/miran_tereven/32/383453_2.png) [@Miran\_Tereven](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Miran_Tereven)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 3:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/44 "2022-11-14T03:40:38Z")
> [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > Indeed, and because of that citizens often subject themselves to terrifying work conditions and sometimes outright wage-slavery. There is a cultural drive to simply grin and bear it. I’m not issuing a condemnation of Caldari culture by calling it abusive, but rather recognizing it as a double-edged sword. Irrespective of their salary, every citizen of Ishukone receives an education, medical care and housing. To my knowledge that is not the same in the Federation if a person can not afford to pay for those things. ---
**Author:** ![Imrik\_Schereau](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/imrik_schereau/32/343151_2.png) [@Imrik\_Schereau](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Imrik_Schereau)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 4:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/45 "2022-11-14T04:13:47Z")
> [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > Irrespective of their salary, every citizen of Ishukone receives an education, medical care and housing. To my knowledge that is not the same in the Federation if a person can not afford to pay for those things. It is not the same in the Federation. Instead there are support programs and charities in existence to care for people living in circumstances below an expected margin. However, just as an individual can rise to the loftiest heights in the Federation they can fall to the deepest depths. ---
**Author:** ![Auriga\_Menkalinan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/auriga_menkalinan/32/351666_2.png) [@Auriga\_Menkalinan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Auriga_Menkalinan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 6:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/46 "2022-11-14T06:29:02Z")
There was a race for data from the Triglavian relays in Serthould and the Federation lost, handing the State an advantage that those in power almost certainly understand better than we do. Attributing the conditions in which President Aguard’s choice had to be made to some unidentified conspiracy is like worrying about monsters under the bed. ---
**Author:** ![Ulysses\_Redmane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysses_redmane/32/410129_2.png) [@Ulysses\_Redmane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ulysses_Redmane)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 6:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/47 "2022-11-14T06:38:00Z")
It’s no greater a leap of logic than assuming the State would use the transmuter technology on the Intaki. Besides, it wouldn’t be the first time there was a monster under that proverbial bed. ---
**Author:** ![Auriga\_Menkalinan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/auriga_menkalinan/32/351666_2.png) [@Auriga\_Menkalinan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Auriga_Menkalinan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 6:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/48 "2022-11-14T06:42:32Z")
Again, I covered this in the original post. I’m beginning to think that you either didn’t read it or you read it but didn’t really absorb it. > [@Auriga\_Menkalinan](#): > > You have just seen another one of your enemies wipe out a planet with technology from the same source. > > The first enemy controls numerous solar systems that are home to billions of people for whom you are personally responsible. > > You don’t _think_ your enemy is that crazy but look what happened in Turnur. > > If you do nothing, you go in the same bracket as President Villers when your people start dying. ---
**Author:** ![Ulysses\_Redmane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ulysses_redmane/32/410129_2.png) [@Ulysses\_Redmane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ulysses_Redmane)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 8:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/49 "2022-11-14T08:17:05Z")
> [@Auriga\_Menkalinan](#): > > Again, I covered this in the original post. I’m beginning to think that you either didn’t read it or you read it but didn’t really absorb it. I think I’ve made it clear that I am questioning the motivations at play here, including the ones you’ve presented. Your implicit questioning of my reading comprehension leads me to believe that you’re not open to the idea that there is an alternative explanation for Aguarda’s choice. As such, I’ll respectfully bow out of this discussion. Safe flying to you, Menkalinan. ---
**Author:** ![Imrik\_Schereau](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/imrik_schereau/32/343151_2.png) [@Imrik\_Schereau](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Imrik_Schereau)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 8:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/50 "2022-11-14T08:58:01Z")
> [@Ulysses\_Redmane](#): > > I think I’ve made it clear that I am questioning the motivations at play here, including the ones you’ve presented. Your implicit questioning of my reading comprehension leads me to believe that you’re not open to the idea that there is an alternative explanation for Aguarda’s choice. At the great risk of interjecting where it is unwelcome, the original premise of the discussion appears to have been to generate an alternative to the already existing and largely accepted explanation that is currently being discussed _ad nauseam_ in other threads regarding the same topic. An attempt to tell the other side of the story, as it were, since every other discussion led to the general assumption of malice or coercion already. ---
**Author:** ![Synthetic\_Cultist](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/synthetic_cultist/32/388342_2.png) [@Synthetic\_Cultist](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Synthetic_Cultist)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 10:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/51 "2022-11-14T10:34:16Z")
> [@Auriga\_Menkalinan](#): > > > [@Auriga\_Menkalinan](#): > > > > Imagine having to make that call… > > Views on this topic are most welcome. “Uneasy sleeps the Head that wears a Crown.” An Ancient phrase, the Origin being Lost, that conveys the Great Pressure that a Person in a position of Authority must Live Under. “The Road to Damnation is Paved with Good Intentions.” Another ancient Proverb that is Relevant to the decision-making Process. People in Authority are Frequently required to make Decisions based on Limited and Imperfect Information. Not all Consequences of a Decision will be Apparent, some only becoming Visible much Later. This would invoke the 2nd Proverb - Damnation further down the Line. However, One cannot endlessly Delay a Decision, awaiting Fresh Information that may Never Come. In General, it is Better to Act, than Not to Act. Dealing with the Consequences of Actions, is in general Better than Dealing with the Consequences of Inaction. Excess Inaction tends to increase Organisational Paralysis, making Decision-making in the Future more Difficult. Whereas Excess Action tends to increase Administrative Chaos that can cause Rash Decision-making. Such things can be Dealt With. Given that the Federal Intelligence Office is Normally quite Competent in its Information Collection efforts, then I am Certain that Madame President Celes Aguard made her Decision based on the Best information Available to her at the Time. Assuming a Decent Moral Compass, then President Aguard’s Decision was Probably the Right One. The Decision has been Made, now Deal with the Consequences, rather than Argue about the Decision. Such is my Opinion on this Issue, based on the Information available to Myself. ---
**Author:** ![Auriga\_Menkalinan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/auriga_menkalinan/32/351666_2.png) [@Auriga\_Menkalinan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Auriga_Menkalinan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 10:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/52 "2022-11-14T10:35:06Z")
Exactly, the prevailing view seems to be that President Aguard took this action because a shadowy cabal of unidentified federal officials wish to oppress the population of Intaki (or perhaps even Intaki people everywhere). What I am asking readers to do is imagine themselves in the President’s seat for a moment when we _know_ that the Federation is behind in a technology race and we _know_ that this sort of technology has led to the destruction (deliberate or otherwise) of a planet subject to CEMWPA just days ago. What would _you_ do in her position? ---
**Author:** ![Snowflake\_Tem](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/snowflake_tem/32/432971_2.png) [@Snowflake\_Tem](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Snowflake_Tem)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 11:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/53 "2022-11-14T11:59:06Z")
> [@Auriga\_Menkalinan](#): > > What would _you_ do in her position? _I_ would make what is known available to the public so that a jury of the people may damn me for my decision in their name, or support me in my endeavour. The subterfuge stinks: this unknowing is corrosive, foreign and offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Synthetic\_Cultist](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/synthetic_cultist/32/388342_2.png) [@Synthetic\_Cultist](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Synthetic_Cultist)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/54 "2022-11-14T12:01:34Z")
Would that not risk Exposing the intelligence operations that provided President Aguard with the Information to make that Decision ? And thus reduce the amount of Information available to make Decisions with in Future ? ---
**Author:** ![Snowflake\_Tem](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/snowflake_tem/32/432971_2.png) [@Snowflake\_Tem](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Snowflake_Tem)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 12:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/55 "2022-11-14T12:02:33Z")
Damn the FIO and their unconstitutional operations. EDIT: To qualify that response somewhat. This “agency” was born out of a desire to perceive truth. Yet it limits the scope of it’s vision to a political elite. It has no right to exist if it does not serve the people. ---
**Author:** ![Imrik\_Schereau](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/imrik_schereau/32/343151_2.png) [@Imrik\_Schereau](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Imrik_Schereau)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 1:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/56 "2022-11-14T13:20:13Z")
I understand the core frustration behind this response but there are a number of things that need to be considered. When it comes to information, particularly information that pertains to military operations and matters of state, there must be measures in place for security. Easily accessible information can cause significant damage if it is accessed by the wrong parties and the more information is disseminated, the more likely it is to be accessed by the wrong parties. In a perfect cluster, all citizens would have access to all information at all times so that we could all make democratic decisions with the information in front of us, but we do not live in a perfect cluster. We live in a cluster where information is dangerous and deadly and there has to be consideration regarding where, when and to whom information is given in order to minimize exposure. It’s not ideal, but it is reality. The FIO is rarely operating from the moral highground but it is, unfortunately, usually a necessary measure. ---
**Author:** ![Snowflake\_Tem](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/snowflake_tem/32/432971_2.png) [@Snowflake\_Tem](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Snowflake_Tem)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 1:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/57 "2022-11-14T13:26:54Z")
You called for empathy. I’m simply pointing out that it is dangerous to ally with suppositions. The content care less, those that want to know, will. > [@Imrik\_Schereau](#): > > but we do not live in a perfect cluster. We live in a cluster where information is dangerous and deadly and there has to be consideration regarding where, when and to whom information is given in order to minimize exposure. When did the Federation take the rights of a parent so that it should treat its citizenry as children? I’ll tell you; when the signatories ceded ‘the watch’ to a super-legal power. ---
**Author:** ![Imrik\_Schereau](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/imrik_schereau/32/343151_2.png) [@Imrik\_Schereau](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Imrik_Schereau)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 2:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/58 "2022-11-14T14:28:17Z")
> [@Snowflake\_Tem](#): > > When did the Federation take the rights of a parent so that it should treat it’s citizenry as children? I’ll tell you; when the signatories ceded ‘the watch’ to a super-legal power. This is a sentiment I’m not sure I fully understand. In what way has the Federation ‘taken the rights of parents’ and started ‘treating its citizens as children’ in your perspective? ---
**Author:** ![Snowflake\_Tem](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/snowflake_tem/32/432971_2.png) [@Snowflake\_Tem](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Snowflake_Tem)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 2:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/59 "2022-11-14T14:59:40Z")
> [@Imrik\_Schereau](#): > > In what way has the Federation ‘taken the rights of parents’ and started ‘treating its citizens as children’ in your perspective? Perhaps the most recent example is most suited to [cite](https://universe.eveonline.com/new-eden-news/the-scope-continued-developments-in-the-warzones) - Intaki Assembly’s Permanent Bureau Meets with Federal Marines Commanding General on Intaki Prime - FIO’s Special Department of Internal Investigations Attaches Agents to Federal Marines Units on Intaki Prime There is no indication that the Intaki Assembly invited this military occupation. There is significantly more evidence that the Intaki people prefer to utilise [Ishukone and Mordu’s Legion](https://universe.eveonline.com/new-eden-news/federal-navy-turned-back-at-intaki-stargate) forces as is their chartered right. Without evidence to the contrary I can only assume that Aguard’s executive privilege has assumed superiority over the representatives of a Founding Charter Members will. ---
**Author:** ![Imrik\_Schereau](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/imrik_schereau/32/343151_2.png) [@Imrik\_Schereau](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Imrik_Schereau)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2022, 3:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049/60 "2022-11-14T15:03:15Z")
> [@Snowflake\_Tem](#): > > I can only assume It is wiser to refrain from assumption. There is no evidence for the contrary but there is no evidence for the confirmation either. There exists a tenuous situation in Intaki for which very little information has been provided to the general public. Until we hear from the Intaki Assembly, it is difficult to know what information the president and the navy were working with or why this was deemed the appropriate response. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/some-empathy-for-president-aguard/384049.md?page=4)