# SP selling: Good monetization or bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [August 21, 2022, 3:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357 "2022-08-21T15:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 3:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/137 "2022-08-22T15:53:56Z")
> [@Ursula\_Anders](#): > > These EVE-dead zombies ( that’s what I’ve decided to call members who don’t play the game ) Ironic coming from someone who went from player to forum warrior in a fraction of the time most older players did. I played for three years before making my first forum post. You did it in a week. And now it’s all you do. Glass houses, Ursula. Mr Epeen 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 4:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/138 "2022-08-22T16:18:28Z")
You keep messing up your timeline. You repeat that the P2W started with PA wanting to milk it > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > All the time people continue to pay for it PA will never make a change. It’s a cash cow and then point out > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > the P2W route didn’t start with CCP directly selling SP, it started with skill injectors back in 2016. which was 2 years before the deal with PA. CCP also did daily logins/skill sprees well before PA. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I don’t think they actually gave up entirely until they went down the P2W road, and it wasn’t all at once, it’s been a transition. Prior to that they just had a focus that was even more heavily skewed in favour of null groups than it is now and they would make changes that were a detriment to the rest of the game to appease null groups. I think they were still trying to make it better, they were just getting feedback from only one portion of the playerbase. This part at least is sorta true, just with the wrong focus. The P2W started when CCP figured out that the big money, the record-breaking wars, and the subs were in Null. They didn’t drive players to null because of the CSM. They started driving players to Null because that’s where the money/subs/news stories/records were happening. CSM never drove game design. Yes CCP limited their feedback with a voting mechanism that favored Null but that didn’t have much impact on their decisions. CSM was more a PR move than anything. The P2W increased with making Null the farming/ISK printing grounds, continued with making it so caps and multi-subs were the meta there, pushed it farther with Rorqs etc. It was just more subtle because they weren’t selling the P2W directly, they were maximizing the “income per player” and nerfing and adjusting the game in ways to try to herd all the players into the “maximum income” corral. That’s when game quality and development started to decline. And all that began years before PA, back in 2010-2012 ish. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s a cash cow that keeps on giving with minimal expense PA financials say EVE is losing money and declining in income and has been for quite a while now. I’d be fine with pointing fingers at PA if there was any evidence. But give credit where credit’s due - CCP is ruining the game and milking the players and failing to develop properly all on their own. Just like they have for over a decade now. ---
**Author:** ![Maxine\_Macks](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/maxine_macks/32/330024_2.png) [@Maxine\_Macks](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Maxine_Macks)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 4:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/139 "2022-08-22T16:23:40Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s got nothing to do with being tough Sure it does, rando. I can hear the tough guy routine from here. It’s always the same: millenials, woke, pink hair blah blah… > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s not spite Sure it is. To keep saying “EVE is dead” while the devs are working hard on it is pure Spite. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > They won’t change that because CCP rely on it for income So you say. If CCP only had PLEX to make money then EVE would really be dead. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > If they stopped PLEX being able to buy omega it’d ultimately have a negative effect on how much PLEX the whales buy The whales… nice fictitious entities to help what you call a point. I don’t buy it. I mean your point, not the PLEX, lol. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Kell](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lucas_kell/32/393556_2.png) [@Lucas\_Kell](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lucas_Kell)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 4:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/141 "2022-08-22T16:53:01Z")
(post deleted by author) ---
**Author:** ![Maxine\_Macks](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/maxine_macks/32/330024_2.png) [@Maxine\_Macks](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Maxine_Macks)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 4:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/142 "2022-08-22T16:58:24Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Show me where I’ve said any of those words You didn’t but you fall into the same pattern. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > If the devs were working hard there’d be evidence of that in their output, which there isn’t It’s up to the person who pays them to decide whether their output is acceptable or not. You’re just a player, you’re not privy to CCP’s inner workings and to judge the devs based on your misinformed insight is nothing short of presumptuous. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > But only because they haemorrhaged most of their playerbase by making P2W mechanics that drove out their actual subscribers I doubt it’s Pay2Win that drove them out. I’m more inclined to believe that resources shuffling and nerfs drove them away. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > They’re not a “fictitious entities”, it’s a term for a type of P2W customer that is used in gaming circles as well as in gaming development. When you’re building out P2W mechanics “whales” are your core audience because they are small subset of users that pay excessive amounts into the game. Most P2W games have most of their income coming from 1-2% of the playerbase, the whales I know what is meant by “Whales” in gaming 🙄 I still say that those “whales” are fictitious and by that I mean so few that they might as well not exist. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 5:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/143 "2022-08-22T17:13:49Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > And I honestly think that if you look at the design decisions taken since PA took over there’s a clear ramp up in the focus on P2W mechanics and design decisions that support P2W models. I agree with this actually. I just see PA as a correlation, not a cause. Except insofar as PA almost certainly set financial performance incentives as part of the “bonus $200 million” in the buyout. However it was CCP who decided how to reach those goals, and as you say, one of the methods they chose was to ramp up the P2W and “pay for convenience/reduced grind” options. I don’t necessarily see all those as a bad thing, but yes CCP has increased that approach in the last few years. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Where does it say that? The last financials I saw showed positive - albeit declining - income from EVE. You can check the financials yourself with any number of web searches. Here’s a quick overview from Oz’s video review of EVE’s 2021 performance: ![EVE_Financials_2021](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/2/2/1/2210a6c252a2fd313ae907295943cd09b28755c8.png) You can watch the whole video for more details at: [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/d/f/a/dfae51f7055f9a5565a4ef672c01089d4f2972fd.jpeg "CCP Games / Pearl Abyss Financial Analysis Q1 2022") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ab-NNmZ424) * * * > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > P2W started earlier, but it’s been exacerbated by the sale to PA because P2W is their core. We may not be able to fully agree on this. I feel confident that CCP’s development direction for over a decade has focused more on milking the game for cash than on quality of EVE. You feel CCP is milking the game for cash in a more recent move, driven by PA. Although the facts literally show CCP was doing all the P2W things before PA was ever in the picture. Regardless, I think we can both agree that so long as CCP’s focus remains on maximum income rather than better quality development, EVE is going to struggle to retain players both new and old. I think SP sales and injectors do some harm, but probably more good than harm in the overall picture. And they’re certainly a better monetization option than, say, increasing all prices. ---
**Author:** ![Maxine\_Macks](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/maxine_macks/32/330024_2.png) [@Maxine\_Macks](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Maxine_Macks)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 5:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/145 "2022-08-22T17:28:16Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Because I pointed out that Fortnite is a bad game and that anyone who plays it has poor taste? No you didn’t hurt my feelings on that one. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Amusingly the Fortnite playerbase is riddled with toxic players that spew the terms you accused me of using Really. So you don’t play tye game but you know what their player base is like… how funny. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > So why doesn’t that apply when someone states something negative? What are you talking about? I wrote that in view of someone stating something negative: you. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You’re going into a frenzy over anyone that criticises EVE. “Frenzy” 😅 And that _anyone_ is just you, I haven’t argued with anyone else today but you so nice try to make me out to be hysterical but you fail miserably. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Sure At least we agree on that, lol. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Additionally, the fact that PAs financial reports only list the NPE as a noteworthy feature in the previous year suggests there’s not a whole lot going on You should really play the game, then maybe you’d see what the devs have been working on. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You are certainly free to believe that if you want I do. Much more than that sob story about Pay2Win. ---
**Author:** ![Maxine\_Macks](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/maxine_macks/32/330024_2.png) [@Maxine\_Macks](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Maxine_Macks)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 5:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/148 "2022-08-22T17:55:19Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I have zero interest in your feelings one way or the other Ah, you’re just frustrated that I don’t agree with you then. Ok. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Why have you made the assumption that I don’t play the game? Because of this > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Because I pointed out that Fortnite is a bad game and that anyone who plays it has poor taste? Unless you’re saying you have poor taste too? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I feel so special I feel so unique 😃 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > There was a sob story somewhere? Yes. Complaining about Pay2Win is always a sob story. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 5:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/149 "2022-08-22T17:56:31Z")
![098](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/c/2/c/c2c7080ab3b6a7dd09676f5c459499c3a2d57c5f.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Maxine\_Macks](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/maxine_macks/32/330024_2.png) [@Maxine\_Macks](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Maxine_Macks)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 6:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/150 "2022-08-22T18:02:18Z")
@Ramona_McCandless Just trying to stay on topic ![bd2e73926f8206358475d68694689921](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/5/7/e/57e0f5a626e2ceec700ceef235b06554012b9f2e.png) ---
**Author:** ![Maxine\_Macks](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/maxine_macks/32/330024_2.png) [@Maxine\_Macks](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Maxine_Macks)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/152 "2022-08-22T18:18:50Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Nope, but if you need to tell yourself I’m frustrated, you do you Why would I need to tell myself that? Your state of mind is none of my concern. That was just a guess… I guess. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Wait what? Because I called Fortnite a poor that that suddenly means I don’t play EVE? No. It suddenly means you don’t play Chutes and Ladders. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > That’s certainly a sentiment that the marketing departments of companies pumping out P2W trash would want people to think, but no, most complaints against P2W are entirely justified legitimate criticism Yea, I bet they roll with laughter at every P2W sob story. Most complaints against pay2win are illegitimate and unjustified. As Kezrai Charzai said: Either EVE isn’t p2w or it has always been p2w. ---
**Author:** ![Maxine\_Macks](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/maxine_macks/32/330024_2.png) [@Maxine\_Macks](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Maxine_Macks)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 6:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/154 "2022-08-22T18:31:32Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > obsessed Sure, “obsessed” 😅 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > They did indeed make that false statement, yes It’s a very true statement. Karzai’s posts are the standard in this forum and only a couple of members can compete. Of course you disagree with her which say a lot more about you than about me. You seem to be out of touch with reality which isn’t conductive to an open and honest discussion anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 6:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/155 "2022-08-22T18:34:05Z")
> [@Maxine\_Macks](#): > > Karzai’s posts are the standard in this forum lol Mr Epeen 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Maxine\_Macks](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/maxine_macks/32/330024_2.png) [@Maxine\_Macks](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Maxine_Macks)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 6:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/157 "2022-08-22T18:51:13Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s not though But it is. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Only because you happen to agree with their statements. No. If you took the time to understand what she posts you would agree too. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > P2W now isn’t just a small part of EVE it’s the focal point of EVE development. Source missing. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 6:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/158 "2022-08-22T18:55:00Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > P2W isn’t a binary switch, it’s a scale, and P2W now isn’t just a small part of EVE it’s the focal point of EVE development. I agree with that actually. Except for the ‘small’ part because EVE has always been strongly P2W. Also, when I say time codes and Plex were “P2W” that’s essentially in the context of what other people are calling P2W. If one is, it all is. And the fact that CCP didn’t have an “in-game” mechanic for trading time codes only means they were slow to code one. Having an official “Time code trading” section on the forums moved it from RMT into officially sanctioned. At any rate, yes, P2W in EVE started with “sub for SP” - the more time paid for, the more SP you got. It increased with MCT and Plex. It increased more with Null farming, official support for multiboxing, Capitals and Rorqs. It increased again with Skill injectors and again with “sold” SP. And of course many other changes along the way. P2W is a spectrum and CCP has been cranking up that aspect of EVE for a decade in various ways, all seeking to maximize “income per player”. During that time they’ve also pretty much given up on truly improving and developing EVE and instead have settled for tweaks and balance passes and a small handful of new features and of course, more monetization. ---
**Author:** ![Maxine\_Macks](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/maxine_macks/32/330024_2.png) [@Maxine\_Macks](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Maxine_Macks)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 7:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/159 "2022-08-22T19:03:39Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > During that time they’ve also pretty much given up on truly improving and developing EVE and instead have settled for tweaks and balance passes and a small handful of new features and of course, more monetization. Haven’t they been working to revamp EVE for a while now? The new UI, DX12, better graphics, updated or new FW, more stuff in the NPE, the new Reward system and I’m sure another few things I haven’t seen or are aware of… Looks to me that the devs have been working on the game, contrary to what some would call “did nothing”. That’s kind of harsh. ---
**Author:** ![Ursula\_Anders](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ursula_anders/32/331878_2.png) [@Ursula\_Anders](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ursula_Anders)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 7:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/160 "2022-08-22T19:07:44Z")
> [@Maxine\_Macks](#): > > I’m more inclined to believe that resources shuffling and nerfs drove them away I believe that too. No one wants their stuff nerfed. And shuffling resources around was a dumb move. ---
**Author:** ![Maxine\_Macks](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/maxine_macks/32/330024_2.png) [@Maxine\_Macks](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Maxine_Macks)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 7:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/161 "2022-08-22T19:17:10Z")
Most online games have microtransactions and some form of p2w, I don’t see their numbers plummeting. But when the game company start messing with players’ stuff so badly that players say “they broke my gameplay”, it’s pretty bad. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 8:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/163 "2022-08-22T20:05:51Z")
> [@Maxine\_Macks](#): > > Haven’t they been working to revamp EVE for a while now? The new UI, DX12, better graphics, updated or new FW, more stuff in the NPE, the new Reward system and I’m sure another few things I haven’t seen or are aware of… Looks to me that the devs have been working on the game, contrary to what some would call “did nothing”. > That’s kind of harsh. Well, they’ve certainly “worked on” things, nobody can say they’ve done nothing. Different people evaluate things differently of course. For me, graphics updates are nice-to-haves but not in any way a game-changer. Updated UI is nice and ‘different’ but nothing about it so far says “much improved” to me. Kind of like the way they changed the Agency interface for agents, or the Skill Training pages - it has it’s good points, it has it’s bad points. What most of the work looks like to me is that various teams are plugging away on their own aspect of the game - graphics/art, UI, skills, skins, marketing packs, etc. This is primarily what I call “tweaks, balance passes, and we-changed-this-for-the-sake-of-changing-it”. And DX 12 changes are driven by Microsoft and literally every developer has to catch up at some point. Plus it’s kinda buggy. CCP also _says_ they’re doing tremendous “background” work to “prepare for EVE Forever”. But TBH I still see the same disconnects, even _more_ “missed inputs”, a chat system change that took 2 years to (almost) get working - stuff like that. I’m not seeing a lot that says “EVE Forever” to me. When I talk about improving and developing EVE, I’m referring less to what I consider a constant background of “teams staying busy and doing _some_thing”, and more about the kind of developments we used to see - entire new game systems being added. Faction Warfare, Incursions, PI, stuff like that. In the past decade we’ve seen very little of this kind of new content. Alpha state, Citadels and Triglavians, basically. And of course some people debate whether Alpha state was “new content”. Missions have been stale for ages. Faction Warfare broken and stale, same. Resource Wars had great potential, was DoA due to laughably bad implementation, and was pulled shortly after. The Triglavian Invasion showed what CCP’s teams can do when they’re pushed, and honestly we should have had something comparable to that every year for the past decade. So yes, CCP has been working on EVE, as we’d expect with 300 employees and a $60+ million per year budget. But compared to the base content development of other games I’ve played for the past 10 years, they’re very far behind. ---
**Author:** ![Vokan\_Narkar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vokan_narkar/32/326293_2.png) [@Vokan\_Narkar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vokan_Narkar)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2022, 8:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357/164 "2022-08-22T20:28:28Z")
Why so angry and hostile just because someone says that what CCP is doing is P2W ? I don’t get it. As to your statement. I am not quitting because I am addicted to the game. Can’t really decide whether I love it or hate it, I guess both. I might be often critical to CCP, but so is original thread creator @Kezrai_Charzai . I am only naming things their right name that is all. I don’t care that CCP is selling anything, they can sell ships idc, I will still play it. But that doesn’t mean that everything is fair and square and all is perfect. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357.md?page=6) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sp-selling-good-monetization-or-bad/374357.md?page=8)