# Suicide ganking balance **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [October 26, 2018, 2:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028 "2018-10-26T14:09:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/44 "2018-10-28T18:01:55Z")
> [@BIade\_Runner](#): > > The removal of security tags mean just reverting the game to an early stage when criminal activity still had consequences. Period. No, it means removing a tool that current lowsec players can use to outsource their security status grind. > [@BIade\_Runner](#): > > All i suggest regarding outlaws is that their actions must have meaningful consequences, especially in high security areas, nothing more, nothing less. Outlaws have meaningful consequences. So much so, that almost no one becomes an outlaw on their only character. Adding more “consequences” isn’t going to do anything. If you think suicide ganking is unbalanced in some way, better to address the mechanics of the event to adjust the cost, or somehow address the vulnerability of the criminals around it. Just increasing the cost of repairing status isn’t going to do anything but hurt lowseccers who trash their status, and the ones that make a living farming the tags. ---
**Author:** ![BIade\_Runner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/biade_runner/32/143170_2.png) [@BIade\_Runner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/BIade_Runner)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/45 "2018-10-28T18:21:52Z")
> [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > No, it means removing a tool that current lowsec players can use to outsource their security status grind. Exactly, is a tool used to outsource your security status repair, but that MUST BE a somehow long grinding process, so the recovery from -10 to 0 to be something with a significant impact in game, not an instant gratification for wealthy individuals. > [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > Outlaws have meaningful consequences. So much so, that almost no one becomes an outlaw on their only character. You must be joking… implying that entire big low sec alliances like Snuffed Out, Shadow Cartel or Lowsecnaya Sholupen are formed from high sec dwellers alts is just preposterous. They most likely use high sec alts for logistic purposes but that have nothing to do with security tags, you do not lose standings with concord by hauling stuff in high sec 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Predvodnica\_LSG](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/predvodnica_lsg/32/63657_2.png) [@Predvodnica\_LSG](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Predvodnica_LSG)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/46 "2018-10-28T18:24:24Z")
And how about to introduce BOP items in Eve ? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/47 "2018-10-28T18:41:01Z")
> [@BIade\_Runner](#): > > Exactly, is a tool used to outsource your security status repair, but that MUST BE a somehow long grinding process, so the recovery from -10 to 0 to be something with a significant impact in game, not an instant gratification for wealthy individuals. But it is a tool to outsource the security grind. That is the whole reason it was introduced. All tags allow you to do is pay someone else to spend the time grinding in exchange for ISK. Why shouldn’t I be able to trade ISK in exchange for work done or time spent, just like everywhere else in Eve? The whole Tags-For-Sec thing created a profitable mini-profession and gets people out in lowsec risking their stuff to harvest this resource. I mean, you can claim that the game would somehow be better off if that profession didn’t exist, but I don’t see how you can be so sure. > [@BIade\_Runner](#): > > You must be joking… implying that entire big low sec alliances like Snuffed Out, Shadow Cartel or Lowsecnaya Sholupen are formed from high sec dwellers alts is just preposterous. They most likely use high sec alts for logistic purposes but that have nothing to do with security tags, you do not lose standings with concord by hauling stuff in high sec 😃 I have no idea what you think I said, but what I intended to state is that the tags were put into the game for players who decide to give lowsec a try and end up trashing their security status. Instead of quitting the game when faced with the grind to repair their security status and return to highsec, this feature was introduced as an alternative mechanic for them to leave lowsec and keep playing the game. Any “solution” to whatever problem you think there is in highsec needs to account for the reason the feature was added in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![BIade\_Runner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/biade_runner/32/143170_2.png) [@BIade\_Runner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/BIade_Runner)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/48 "2018-10-28T19:08:50Z")
> [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > Instead of quitting the game when faced with the grind to repair their security status and return to highsec, this feature was introduced as an alternative mechanic for them to leave lowsec and keep playing the game. You make me smile again… People quitting the game because they need to grind their security status? The low sec life is a life style who have nothing to do with security status, the population formed from people with -10 security status is huge, and all of them are fine staying and having a permanent living there. Security tags was introduced as a way for helping high sec people to engage more in piracy and low sec pvp, without losing their access to high sec. Anyway, this was mostly a failed try as you cannot convert carebears in low sec pirates just by removing security status penalty… They will not go there because they are risk adverse, don’t like that type of game play, they like to mine, etc. Instead, the main effects of security tags are unwanted benefits for very specific categories of players who permanently live in high sec, like suicide gankers (players who like to pew pew and are not risk adverse go in low sec anyway, as most of them are very happy with their permanent -10 security status). ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/49 "2018-10-28T19:24:43Z")
> [@BIade\_Runner](#): > > You make me smile again… People quitting the game because they need to grind their security status? > The low sec life is a life style who have nothing to do with security status, the population formed from people with -10 security status is huge, and all of them are fine staying and have a permanent living there. > **[WantToTrade: Tags for Security Status | EVE Online](https://www.eveonline.com/news/view/wanttotrade-tags-for-security-status)** > > Hi there. I hope that everyone enjoyed Fanfest last week as much as we did. This dev blog is a follow-up to the Fanfest presentation where I introduced Team Five 0's 'Tags for Security Status' feature coming in Odyssey. If you were present for the... In case you don’t want to click: > To begin with, I’m going to list some of the goals that we had when starting this project. Some of these came from the high-level goals for the Odyssey expansion itself. > > - Give players a reason to be out in space. In particular, to be out in low-sec space. > - Add something unique to low-sec that gives residents and visitors a resource worth fighting over > > - Add an alternative method of raising security status via the proven market mechanics > - Provide an alternative way to get back in to high-sec for ‘reformed’ outlaw players. We have had players that would rather stop playing altogether than grind their way back up by killing NPCs > - But we still need to respect the sandbox! If your proposal breaks the two main goals of why the feature was introduced in the first place, you might want to reconsider things and come up with something that respects the original purpose of the mechanic. ---
**Author:** ![BIade\_Runner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/biade_runner/32/143170_2.png) [@BIade\_Runner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/BIade_Runner)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/50 "2018-10-28T19:28:06Z")
> [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > We have had players that would rather stop playing altogether than grind their way back up by killing NPCs That is so unlikely that i will not even launch a debate over it. Also, even if was true, the game play must not reward lazy players 😛 Moreover, there are plenty of resources to fight over in low sec, even without security tags. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Omnathious\_Deninard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/omnathious_deninard/32/266675_2.png) [@Omnathious\_Deninard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Omnathious_Deninard)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2018, 8:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/51 "2018-10-28T20:39:22Z")
> [@BIade\_Runner](#): > > Also, even if was true, the game play must not reward lazy players Wow, such an insightful statement, it’s almost like crying for extra protection rather than working for it for oneself. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 9:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/52 "2018-10-29T09:08:54Z")
Indeed. > [@BIade\_Runner](#): > > I will not take any sides here This lasted. ---
**Author:** ![BIade\_Runner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/biade_runner/32/143170_2.png) [@BIade\_Runner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/BIade_Runner)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 10:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/53 "2018-10-29T10:43:05Z")
Notice please that i have not asked for the removal of suicide ganking, or any direct nerfing of that mechanic like concord response time, etc. The best thing about this two changes is that they don’t break anything else than the laziness of some people who want easy access to soft targets, but cannot live with the consequences of their criminal activity, like losing security status (God save us from that kind of horror…). To have a meaningful role for the security status, people need to do some work and invest some effort into repairing it, instead of having a magic wand giving instant gratification like the security tags does. ---
**Author:** ![Mingja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mingja/32/50857_2.png) [@Mingja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mingja)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 11:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/54 "2018-10-29T11:19:27Z")
> [@ISD\_Sakimura](#): > > While I would agree that there should be “bigger” consequences for criminal actions, than there is today, removing the ability to “fix” your concord standing is perhaps going a little too far. Perhaps one could suggest that CCP takes a look at this mechanic at the same time that they’ll be looking at making a new _War Declaration system_ . You can still rat your way up. You don’t like it? Well, that’s the consequence to what you did. > [@ISD\_Sakimura](#): > > This makes little sence; Concord does not own a whole lot of stations, nor do they control what the factions’ and their corporation can and can’t do. It would only make sense for station that Concord actually own. Just make it so that you can not dock up in any system where you aren’t “welcome”. Think of “Empire access lists” handed out by concord. I too think that having your secstatus broken should mean a significant pain. Why do I think that? Because the closest thing to secstatus is Empire standing, and it has a lot more severe consequences while being a hundred million times more difficult to fix. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/55 "2018-10-29T21:07:00Z")
I noticed you don’t ask anything of lazy haulers and miners who are afk or cannot be bothered to put in the tiny amount of effort it takes to protect themselves from ganking. So yeah, gankers and naughty pvp’ers should be nerfed for being lazy. But lazy haulers and miners? That’s fine! Not taking sides at all. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![BIade\_Runner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/biade_runner/32/143170_2.png) [@BIade\_Runner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/BIade_Runner)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 8:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/56 "2018-10-30T08:52:38Z")
This discussion is not about your endeavour to educate people like miners or indy guys into doing whatever you want them doing, but is about what the developer can do to balance a game mechanic who can be overly abused. Laziness is something i am not interested to address in any way, EVE is not a place meant to reeducate people; instead i brought laziness in discussion just because was used as an argument to not fix an unbalanced game mechanic, aka the supposed case of people who prefer to quit the game than to put effort into fixing their security status… 🙄 Suicide gankers can also can stay lazy as long as they want, but game mechanic must not reward them with easy kills… If you think that miners get their ore to easy or haulers must not able to haul AFK, then make another thread where you can suggest some changes to address that kind of issues. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 9:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/57 "2018-10-30T09:17:21Z")
> [@BIade\_Runner](#): > > I will not take any sides here, all i will do is to suggest a way, maybe the simplest one, to prevent excessive proliferation and getting ganking practice out of hand; Here’s a far simpler solution: stupid and/or lazy players stop putting excessive value in their ships. If players do not willingly opt into becoming victims by flying ships with an average loot drop greater than the cost of a suicide gank there will be very little, if any, suicide ganking. Stop trying to change the game mechanics to pander to people who are failing to use the already-available tools to protect themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Predvodnica\_LSG](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/predvodnica_lsg/32/63657_2.png) [@Predvodnica\_LSG](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Predvodnica_LSG)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 9:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/58 "2018-10-30T09:22:19Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Here’s a far simpler solution: stupid and/or lazy players stop putting excessive value in their ships. Here is better solution. “stupid and/or lazy players” will pay subscription and will be protected in HiSec to put anythig they want in their ships. “Smart players” will pay subscription and will be able to shoot anyone in nullsec , and players with low standing in LowSec 😊 ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 9:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/59 "2018-10-30T09:23:26Z")
> [@Predvodnica\_LSG](#): > > Here is better solution. > “stupid and/or lazy players” will pay subscription and will be protected in HiSec to put anythig they want in their ships. Or we could not pander to incompetent carebears. ---
**Author:** ![Predvodnica\_LSG](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/predvodnica_lsg/32/63657_2.png) [@Predvodnica\_LSG](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Predvodnica_LSG)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 9:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/60 "2018-10-30T09:24:39Z")
If " incompetent carebears" want to give money to CCP , then CCP must give them safe space, it is called TRADE. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 9:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/61 "2018-10-30T09:28:18Z")
> [@Predvodnica\_LSG](#): > > If " incompetent carebears" want to give money to CCP , then CCP must give them safe space, it is called TRADE. Nope. These players are not welcome in EVE and should get nothing but contempt. If you want safe space go back to WoW. ---
**Author:** ![Predvodnica\_LSG](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/predvodnica_lsg/32/63657_2.png) [@Predvodnica\_LSG](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Predvodnica_LSG)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 9:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/62 "2018-10-30T09:32:49Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > These players are not welcome in EVE and should get nothing but contempt That was in CCP time, but now is PA time and everyone’s money is welcome. 😊 ---
**Author:** ![BIade\_Runner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/biade_runner/32/143170_2.png) [@BIade\_Runner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/BIade_Runner)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 9:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/63 "2018-10-30T09:45:08Z")
You make again the same logic mistake as others, suggesting to force players to work against a game mechanic flaw, instead making it a task for the developers. With the current game mechanics, suicide ganking can be performed as a continuous, risk free activity, by letting suicide gankers to have a permanent foothold and use as safe haven the high sec structures. So the problem is not with the people who suicide gank occasionally, and as result don’t wreck their security status, but with the ones who make from this their main or even the only one activity in EVE; and that because actual game mechanics offer them cushy soft targets and easy kills on treadmill… Moreover, how can even pretend that suicide ganking is balanced when it allows that even a single individual, who is able to do that while multi-box two dozens characters, to make trillions worth of killing in a high sec system? Try to multi-box more than two or three ships in real combat PVP and see how easy and often you screw it up! Even a null sec player who regularly flies and risk expensive super capital ships, is striving a lot to get close to that numbers… [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028.md?page=3)