# Suicide ganking balance **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [October 26, 2018, 2:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028 "2018-10-26T14:09:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Omnathious\_Deninard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/omnathious_deninard/32/266675_2.png) [@Omnathious\_Deninard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Omnathious_Deninard)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 11:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/64 "2018-10-30T11:23:09Z")
> [@BIade\_Runner](#): > > You make again the same logic mistake as others, suggesting to force players to work against a game mechanic flaw Here is your fundamental misunderstanding, it’s not a game mechanic flaw, the game was designed as a PVP game 100% attacking players in high sec is by design, the only “flaw” that has occurred with attacking players in high sec is escaping CONCORD which was patched out. ---
**Author:** ![Mingja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mingja/32/50857_2.png) [@Mingja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mingja)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 12:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/65 "2018-10-30T12:40:43Z")
> [@Omnathious\_Deninard](#): > > Here is your fundamental misunderstanding, it’s not a game mechanic flaw, the game was designed as a PVP game 100% attacking players in high sec is by design, the only “flaw” that has occurred with attacking players in high sec is escaping CONCORD which was patched out. The problem is: Broken Secstatus doesn’t have harsh consequences compared to it’s bigger brother: FactionStanding. When something (Secstatus) is trivial to fix, while another mechanic (factionStanding) that does literally the same just for another faction, is a pain in the rear end to fix, then it’s fair to say that either one of these systems doesn’t look balanced. So, either Fix Secstatus OR fix Factionstandings. Pretending that none of them is broken is not an option. ---
**Author:** ![BIade\_Runner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/biade_runner/32/143170_2.png) [@BIade\_Runner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/BIade_Runner)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/66 "2018-10-30T13:41:07Z")
As i said before, the issue is not about ability to suicide gank, that is a mechanic who must remain in game. The main problem is the ability to permanently live in high sec as a -10 character. The ability to perma-live as outlaw in high sec break almost entirely the purpose of having a security status rating! Why are you designated as -10 if all restrictions resume to a very narrow spectrum of setbacks? As the game mechanic it’s in present, you can to travel as -10 in high sec even in big ships because police don’t point you, you can dock anywhere and you can even tether in space! 🤨 That makes, as an emergent effect, suicide ganking much to easy for outlaws, (remember that i don’t speak here about people with higher security status than -2) and as result you can kill a ship every 15 minutes without even needing to leave the system! Moreover, with the rework of war-dec mechanics, this leave an loophole for players or group of players to keep harassing any target if they choose to. So instead to war-dec some entity they can to just move in their system and keep suicide ganking them forever (many if not most corporations have the financial capability to go with suicide ganking how long they want). ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/67 "2018-10-30T15:56:19Z")
> [@BIade\_Runner](#): > > This discussion is not about your endeavour to educate people like miners or indy guys into doing whatever you want them doing, but is about what the developer can do to balance a game mechanic who can be overly abused. What abuse? Is this your _impartiality_ again? > [@BIade\_Runner](#): > > Suicide gankers can also can stay lazy as long as they want, but game mechanic must not reward them with easy kills… The mechanics don’t make getting kills easier for ganks. Quite the opposite in fact. What makes their kills so easy is the player getting ganked not protecting themselves. If they put more effort into their game they wouldn’t be so easy to gank would they? Same with how ganking can make quite a lot of isk, because the players getting ganked are carrying so much. If they didn’t gankers wouldn’t make so much isk would they? You should also realise your idea doesn’t do anything to make killing via ganks harder. Your proposal, like so many other whiners, is just about inconveniencing gankers as much as possible because you don’t like it. And you don’t care what other inconvenience you add to other gameplay at the same time ‘_as long as the nasty gankers get more nerfs_ 😥’ You opened the topic wanting open honest debate, perhaps start with being open and honest. ---
**Author:** ![Predvodnica\_LSG](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/predvodnica_lsg/32/63657_2.png) [@Predvodnica\_LSG](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Predvodnica_LSG)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/68 "2018-10-30T16:00:10Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > You opened the topic wanting open honest debate, perhaps start with being open and honest. You see, a year ago, this topic would be immediately locked up as trolling, and is now seriously discussed. This means something changes in CCP and Eve Online. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/69 "2018-10-30T16:33:56Z")
> [@Predvodnica\_LSG](#): > > You see, a year ago, this topic would be immediately locked up as trolling, No it wasn’t. > **[Balancing High Sec suicide ganking by Hull Value - a realistic approach - ...](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/topic/291918)** > > EVE allows you to discover, explore and dominate an amazing science fiction universe while you fight, trade, form corporations and alliances with other players. I’ve seen some ■■■■ in my time. But when it comes to being full of it, you take the biscuit mate. ---
**Author:** ![Predvodnica\_LSG](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/predvodnica_lsg/32/63657_2.png) [@Predvodnica\_LSG](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Predvodnica_LSG)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/70 "2018-10-30T16:38:49Z")
2013-11-01 Time very different from last year !!! ---
**Author:** ![Omnathious\_Deninard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/omnathious_deninard/32/266675_2.png) [@Omnathious\_Deninard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Omnathious_Deninard)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/71 "2018-10-30T18:13:41Z")
> [@BIade\_Runner](#): > > The main problem is the ability to permanently live in high sec as a -10 character. A -10 character is kill on sight for anyone. Dealing with criminals is a player job by design. Remember NPCs don’t write the stories in EVE players do. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/72 "2018-10-30T23:01:38Z")
Right. We went from being able to discuss it, to the threads being closed. Just last year the threads were closed though. We can talk about it again. We were having an off year last year were we? ---
**Author:** ![techzer0](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/techzer0/32/101314_2.png) [@techzer0](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/techzer0)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 4:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/73 "2018-10-31T04:19:51Z")
> [@Omnathious\_Deninard](#): > > A -10 character is kill on sight for anyone. How many -10 players have you killed while they were tethered in a .5? Can see them. Can’t do ■■■■ to them. Citadels buffed ganking. ---
**Author:** ![BIade\_Runner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/biade_runner/32/143170_2.png) [@BIade\_Runner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/BIade_Runner)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 7:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/74 "2018-10-31T07:19:41Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > What abuse? Is this your _impartiality_ again? How “can” suicide ganking be abused? I pointed out that very clear, and exposed the issue in this paragraph: “Moreover, with the rework of war-dec mechanics, this leave an loophole for players or group of players to keep harassing any target if they choose to. So instead to war-dec some entity they can to just move in their system and keep suicide ganking them forever (many if not most corporations have the financial capability to go with suicide ganking how long they want).” So it is yet abused? Maybe it is, maybe it’s not, but is a lot of talk who can take place there. CAN be suicide ganking abused in the actual form? I have no doubt about that. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 7:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/75 "2018-10-31T07:49:09Z")
> [@BIade\_Runner](#): > > You make again the same logic mistake as others, suggesting to force players to work against a game mechanic flaw, instead making it a task for the developers. You make the same logic mistake as other carebears, assuming that an opt-in mechanic like suicide ganking is a flaw instead of a feature. This is a very bad assumption. > With the current game mechanics, suicide ganking can be performed as a continuous, risk free activity, by letting suicide gankers to have a permanent foothold and use as safe haven the high sec structures. So what? Being suicide ganked is an opt-in activity where everyone being killed has voluntarily chosen to participate. Why does it matter if it’s risk-free when nobody is being hurt? If you don’t want to participate in being suicide ganked then just opt out of the mechanic. > because actual game mechanics offer them cushy soft targets and easy kills on treadmill… Game mechanics do not offer easy targets. Stupid and/or lazy players offer easy targets. Nobody is forcing you to be an easy gank target, and it’s fairly simple to avoid becoming one. > Moreover, how can even pretend that suicide ganking is balanced when it allows that even a single individual, who is able to do that while multi-box two dozens characters, to make trillions worth of killing in a high sec system? Because their profit depends 100% on other players being incompetent and gifting it to them. Is it “unbalanced” if you jetcan a billion ISK in PLEX and someone scoops the loot? Should we nerf jetcans because someone can make tons of ISK with this “be an idiot and drop PLEX” mechanic? Of course not. In a world where all players are competent suicide ganking would be a low-profit activity at best, and probably a net loss of income for the vast majority of players. This is just fine from a balance point of view. ---
**Author:** ![BIade\_Runner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/biade_runner/32/143170_2.png) [@BIade\_Runner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/BIade_Runner)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 8:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/76 "2018-10-31T08:04:08Z")
Many suicide ganks are made on empty jump freighters just for the lulz factor, so profit is completely irrelevant in this discussion, there are to many rich players who can afford it. All your post is about blaming the victim and stuff, just to avoid touching some broken game mechanics. You cannot ask players to do the developers job in fixing what need to be fixed. And in the end neither suicide gankers or their victims will decide when is the time to do something about a broken game mechanic, but the devs. And as much overuse the suicide ganking is getting, sooner will be the devs forced to take a step into address it. Also, as others pointed out, the focus of developers have moved from modeling EVE as a dystopian violent world, even at the cost of less subscriptions, to making it a profitable business with much better player retention. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 8:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/77 "2018-10-31T08:13:37Z")
> [@BIade\_Runner](#): > > Many suicide ganks are made on empty jump freighters just for the lulz factor, {citation needed} IIRC every time this claim is made the “evidence” to support it is a tiny minority of freighter kills, at most. > You cannot ask players to do the developers job in fixing what need to be fixed. You can’t. However, suicide ganking does not need to be fixed. It is just fine exactly as it is now. > Also, as others pointed out, the focus of developers have moved from modeling EVE as a dystopian violent world, even at the cost of less subscriptions, to making it a profitable business with much better player retention. You had better hope this never happens, as it would mean destroying the very thing that made EVE so successful for so long in a market where its competition has failed and died. ---
**Author:** ![BIade\_Runner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/biade_runner/32/143170_2.png) [@BIade\_Runner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/BIade_Runner)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 8:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/78 "2018-10-31T08:22:13Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > IIRC every time this claim is made the “evidence” to support it is a tiny minority of freighter kills, at most. That can be verified very easy as you have hard data for it. Just look on the killboard at jump freighter kills from high sec, you will find plenty of “evidence”. Many of the kills are either empty JF or have a cargo value under 2-3 billions, who don’t economically justify the loss of 25 fully tech 2 fitted Talos in the process of suicide ganking… ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/79 "2018-10-31T13:43:33Z")
There are rules on harassment. If you think it’s happening file a ticket. And just because harassment _can_ happen, all gankers that don’t harass should have their gameplay further inconvenienced? I can follow someone around and interfere with their missions and over mine any rock they try to mine, and that could be considered harassment, but we’re not gonna nerf mining or mission running to stop abuse. You just file a ticket. Shooting empty freighters still isn’t abuse. Nor does your proposal encourage gankers to stop ganking empty freighters. There’s also no evidence to suggest ganking is any higher than it used to be before crime watch. People have tried to compare year to year in previous threads. Ganking seemed to happen more then than it does now. Even freighter ganking. ---
**Author:** ![CowRocket\_Void](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cowrocket_void/32/189525_2.png) [@CowRocket\_Void](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/CowRocket_Void)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/80 "2018-10-31T16:07:49Z")
> [@BIade\_Runner](#): > > Many suicide ganks are made on empty jump freighters just for the lulz factor, so profit is completely irrelevant in this discussion That is very wrong. My alts gank freighters and JFs all the time, empty or loaded. I dont care either way, I sell JFs and freighters and make a very nice profit. More than enough to sub and supply my ganking alts. ---
**Author:** ![BIade\_Runner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/biade_runner/32/143170_2.png) [@BIade\_Runner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/BIade_Runner)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 7:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/81 "2018-10-31T19:57:51Z")
Well, if this two relative mild changes freaks you out, just wait until CCP decide that your little guilty pleasure reduce player retention and mess with their profit targets… Then you will get ASAP some complete wrecking nerfs to suicide ganking, the kind that ECM has been blessed just recently… Also pray that not to many players will embrace this occupation in the near future, and hasten the inevitable changes, who i repeat, will be most likely much more brutal than the ones i suggested here 😅 ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/82 "2018-10-31T20:31:35Z")
> [@BIade\_Runner](#): > > Well, if this two relative mild changes freaks you out, just wait until CCP decide that your little guilty pleasure reduce player retention and mess with their profit targets… > Then you will get ASAP some complete wrecking nerfs to suicide ganking, the kind that ECM has been blessed just recently… At which point EVE dies for real, because CCP has abandoned the design principles that make it worth playing. ---
**Author:** ![techzer0](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/techzer0/32/101314_2.png) [@techzer0](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/techzer0)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028/83 "2018-10-31T22:49:12Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > At which point EVE dies for real, because CCP has abandoned the design principles that make it worth playing. EVE has supposedly been dying with each change since 2003. That change would be no different. People would claim EVE is dying while they continue to sub and play. Notice all the people that threatened to quit over ECM are still playing…lol [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/suicide-ganking-balance/116028.md?page=4)