# "Sundsele Six" Missing - A call for Support and Justice **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [August 1, 2019, 2:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616 "2019-08-01T14:32:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Aurora\_Amadi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aurora_amadi/32/146326_2.png) [@Aurora\_Amadi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aurora_Amadi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 5:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/21 "2019-08-05T05:24:51Z")
You certainly are quick to speak for others in these forums, Miss Arrendis. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 6:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/22 "2019-08-05T06:52:23Z")
It’s better to ignore those who have a history of trying to put her words into other people mouths. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 12:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/23 "2019-08-05T12:35:53Z")
I’m not speaking _for_ anyone else. I’m speaking as a Matari, and a Sebiestor. It’s bad enough when the other _Tribes_ butt into our affairs, now _foreigners_ want to? There are 3 major empires outside the Republic. Of them, **two** want everyone else to do things their way, and have a history of attempting to use force to compel this, including attacks on civilian populations. We most certainly appreciate the help the Federation can offer when we actually _ask_ for it, but otherwise? Mind your own business, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 12:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/24 "2019-08-05T12:52:58Z")
In this particular instance, she is correct in saying that foreign involvement would seen as ‘worse’. You have to remember, Matari tend to be _VERY_ weary of foreign intervention. 900 years of slavery will do that to you. ---
**Author:** ![Aurora\_Amadi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aurora_amadi/32/146326_2.png) [@Aurora\_Amadi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aurora_Amadi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 1:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/25 "2019-08-05T13:17:58Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I’m not speaking _for_ anyone else. I’m speaking as a Matari, and a Sebiestor. It’s bad enough when the other _Tribes_ butt into our affairs, now _foreigners_ want to? > > There are 3 major empires outside the Republic. Of them, **two** want everyone else to do things their way, and have a history of attempting to use force to compel this, including attacks on civilian populations. We most certainly appreciate the help the Federation can offer when we actually _ask_ for it, but otherwise? Mind your own business, thanks. I appreciate the insight of the Matari, but given your affiliations are as independent as mine, I don’t know that you are any more qualified to weigh in than I am. Which, given your assumptions of my associations with the Federation, well, I think that much speaks for itself. Thank you for your… _advice_… in any case, Miss Arrendis. > [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > In this particular instance, she is correct in saying that foreign involvement would seen as ‘worse’. You have to remember, Matari tend to be _VERY_ weary of foreign intervention. 900 years of slavery will do that to you. That’s a shame. Still, I’m not one to beat a dead horse. Especially one that can be led to water… ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 1:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/26 "2019-08-05T13:36:13Z")
> [@Aurora\_Amadi](#): > > your affiliations are as independent as mine Uh… no, they are not. She’s of the Tribe. You are not. (This is not intended as an insult. If you feel it is, that is pretty much proof you do not understand us enough to really help.) ---
**Author:** ![Aurora\_Amadi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aurora_amadi/32/146326_2.png) [@Aurora\_Amadi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aurora_Amadi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 2:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/27 "2019-08-05T14:25:46Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > > [@Aurora\_Amadi](#): > > > > your affiliations are as independent as mine > > Uh… no, they are not. She’s of the Tribe. You are not. > > (This is not intended as an insult. If you feel it is, that is pretty much proof you do not understand us enough to really help.) What a marvelous culture. Does the same apply to those Minmatar who are of the faith and loyal to the Amarr as well? ---
**Author:** ![Kalaratiri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalaratiri/32/477189_2.png) [@Kalaratiri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalaratiri)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 2:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/28 "2019-08-05T14:39:52Z")
> [@Aurora\_Amadi](#): > > of the faith and loyal to the Amarr Is this even a question? ---
**Author:** ![Aurora\_Amadi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aurora_amadi/32/146326_2.png) [@Aurora\_Amadi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aurora_Amadi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 2:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/29 "2019-08-05T14:45:20Z")
It’s important for someone in my position to know where the lines are drawn, Miss Kalaratiri. Particularly given the complexities of exception. ---
**Author:** ![Kalaratiri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalaratiri/32/477189_2.png) [@Kalaratiri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalaratiri)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/30 "2019-08-05T15:33:23Z")
When it comes to an internal Tribal matter, the line is drawn at the Tribe. When it comes to an internal Republic matter, the line is drawn at those of the Republic. Amarr loyal, Amarrian faith-following Minmatar are absolutely on the wrong side of the line. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/31 "2019-08-05T15:35:11Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I’m not speaking _for_ anyone else. I’m speaking as a Matari, and a Sebiestor. It’s bad enough when the other _Tribes_ butt into our affairs, now _foreigners_ want to? This irony pains me. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 3:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/32 "2019-08-05T15:40:39Z")
> [@Aurora\_Amadi](#): > > I appreciate the insight of the Matari, but given your affiliations are as independent as mine See, this is kinda my point. You guys _from_ the Fed… you’re from the Fed. You leave, you go elsewhere, you’re ‘independent’ and consider yourselves apart of the from the Fed. I am Matari. I am Sebiestor. I am Stjörnauga. No matter where I go, no matter who I work for, I am those things first. > [@Aurora\_Amadi](#): > > Does the same apply to those Minmatar who are of the faith and loyal to the Amarr as well? Minmatar who are of the Amarr faith and loyal to the Empress over the Republic are errant, but they are still our people. And we hope they will see the error of their ways. If and when they do, we will be here for them. > [@Aurora\_Amadi](#): > > What a marvelous culture. Cultures. Seven cultures, woven together into a grand tapestry. Each of the seven, in reality comprised of up to thousands of subcultures still reconstructing themselves after the Black Years. > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > This irony pains me. If your own inability to understand that I am speaking my own opinion, for myself, but that that opinion is _inevitably_ shaped by my experience as a member of my Clan, Tribe, and Nation, you should probably stop drinking yourself into a stupor every night over the staggering impotence of your feverish scheming, Aldrith. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 3:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/33 "2019-08-05T15:46:23Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > impotence Really the last word you could use to describe me or my efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Aurora\_Amadi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aurora_amadi/32/146326_2.png) [@Aurora\_Amadi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aurora_Amadi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 3:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/34 "2019-08-05T15:55:33Z")
> [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > > [@Arrendis](#): > > > > I’m not speaking _for_ anyone else. I’m speaking as a Matari, and a Sebiestor. It’s bad enough when the other _Tribes_ butt into our affairs, now _foreigners_ want to? > > This irony pains me. For once we agree on something, Captain Newelle. > [@Arrendis](#): > > > [@Aurora\_Amadi](#): > > > > I appreciate the insight of the Matari, but given your affiliations are as independent as mine > > See, this is kinda my point. You guys _from_ the Fed… you’re from the Fed. You leave, you go elsewhere, you’re ‘independent’ and consider yourselves apart of the from the Fed. I am Matari. I am Sebiestor. I am Stjörnauga. No matter where I go, no matter who I work for, I am those things first. > > > [@Aurora\_Amadi](#): > > > > Does the same apply to those Minmatar who are of the faith and loyal to the Amarr as well? > > Minmatar who are of the Amarr faith and loyal to the Empress over the Republic are errant, but they are still our people. And we hope they will see the error of their ways. If and when they do, we will be here for them. > > > [@Aurora\_Amadi](#): > > > > What a marvelous culture. > > Cultures. Seven cultures, woven together into a grand tapestry. Each of the seven, in reality comprised of up to thousands of subcultures still reconstructing themselves after the Black Years. What an interesting take on nationalism and xenophobia. It is perplexing to me how one can both be part of the Tribe and the Republic by blood regardless of affiliation or proximity but that ceases to be when one is loyal to the Empire. Even more perplexing how one can say such things and then prescribe me and mine as part of the Federation purely by nature of correlation of being Intaki… I wonder if the same logic applies to those Intaki within Electus Matari… Nevertheless, I wish the Republic well in their own affairs. I certainly hope they can find some better marshals, at the very least. _Matari_ marshals, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/35 "2019-08-05T15:56:51Z")
> [@Aurora\_Amadi](#): > > It is perplexing to me how one can both be part of the Tribe and the Republic by blood regardless of affiliation of proximity but that ceases to be when one is loyal to the Empire. Except I clearly didn’t say any such thing, did I? I said they were errant. My kin don’t stop being my kin just because they’re making a mistake. I just think they’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Aurora\_Amadi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aurora_amadi/32/146326_2.png) [@Aurora\_Amadi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aurora_Amadi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/36 "2019-08-05T15:59:43Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > > [@Aurora\_Amadi](#): > > > > It is perplexing to me how one can both be part of the Tribe and the Republic by blood regardless of affiliation of proximity but that ceases to be when one is loyal to the Empire. > > Except I clearly didn’t say any such thing, did I? I said they were errant. My kin don’t stop being my kin just because they’re making a mistake. I just think they’re wrong. Oh, we’re not done? Very well, then I’ve another question that may help me make sense of this ongoing appeal to genetics. Would you trust those Amarr-loyal Matari to escort the “Sundsele Six” to their trial? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 4:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/37 "2019-08-05T16:08:24Z")
> [@Aurora\_Amadi](#): > > Would you trust those Amarr-loyal Matari to escort the “Sundsele Six” to their trial? That would depend on what I know of them. For example: I would trust Samira Kernher, a Sebiestor by blood who is a fairly extreme religious zealot for the Amarr faith in her own way, and loyal to the vision of the Empire as laid out in Amarr scriptures, to do so, yes. I’d trust her because I know her, and I know that regardless of her religious beliefs, if she takes on a commitment, she honors that commitment to the best of her ability. Generic Sebiestor-blooded Amarr Loyalist #46325? No. **By the same token** though… I wouldn’t trust Generic Republic-loyalist Sebiestor, _either_. The people in the positions like the guards who were killed have those positions _because_ they have evidenced a commitment to their duty. Simply saying ‘I’m a Sebiestor!’ isn’t enough. It’s a _requirement_, but not even close to the only one for such a responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/38 "2019-08-05T16:15:48Z")
Something that bears reminding is that "Of the Tribe’ sometimes isn’t as simple as simply being born into that tribe. Matari that were born in outside the republic are still Matari and members of their respective tribes, however that may not necessarily mean they are accorded the same level of deference or social capital as other Matari. Each Tribe handle’s ‘membership’ differently, with each clan having even further nuances beyond that. An example that I have used in the past to illustrate this point: a Brutor born in the Federation or even on returning from the Empire has the right to attend a clan or tribe meeting, however they may not have the right to actually speak at that meeting, if they have not undergone the proper trails that have earned them that right. They may be considered to be on equal status as a child in that regard. Once that Brutor has undergone these trails, they then may be considered a full member of the Tribe and may actively participate in the affairs of their clan or the Tribe. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/39 "2019-08-05T16:29:42Z")
> [@Aurora\_Amadi](#): > > Very well, then I’ve another question that may help me make sense of this ongoing appeal to genetics. But it is _not_ an appeal to genetics? It is an appeal to the being _a member of the Tribe_. Those coincide often, but they are not _the same thing._ And yes, I do consider for example Samira Kernher a Sebiestor. She is of the Amarr faith, but she is also Marked. And yes, hers is a complicated situation, but these things _are_ complicated. I do not necessarily trust _everyone_ of my tribe to do any particular thing. Being of a tribe does not mean you are a good person, or that you are better than someone else. We have plenty of criminals in this tribe, and there are plenty perfectly good people in other tribes, and among foreigners. ---
**Author:** ![Aurora\_Amadi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aurora_amadi/32/146326_2.png) [@Aurora\_Amadi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aurora_Amadi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616/40 "2019-08-05T17:22:37Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > > [@Aurora\_Amadi](#): > > > > Very well, then I’ve another question that may help me make sense of this ongoing appeal to genetics. > > But it is _not_ an appeal to genetics? It is an appeal to the being _a member of the Tribe_. Those coincide often, but they are not _the same thing._ > > And yes, I do consider for example Samira Kernher a Sebiestor. She is of the Amarr faith, but she is also Marked. And yes, hers is a complicated situation, but these things _are_ complicated. > > I do not necessarily trust _everyone_ of my tribe to do any particular thing. Being of a tribe does not mean you are a good person, or that you are better than someone else. We have plenty of criminals in this tribe, and there are plenty perfectly good people in other tribes, and among foreigners. And how do you determine who “good people” are among the foreigners, Miss Rhiannon? Only partially a criticism, mind - I suppose that depends on if you share Miss Arrendis’s sentiments in precluding one of being of the Federation purely by race. Fighting words, to some. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sundsele-six-missing-a-call-for-support-and-justice/179616.md?page=3)