# Surgical Strike and Conflict Promotion **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [April 24, 2020, 1:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186 "2020-04-24T13:42:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 6:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/22 "2020-04-26T06:57:51Z")
> [@Darlo\_Kubika](#): > > Inane nonsense. I see you’ve reached the point in this thread where you abandon all pretense of having a constructive argument and just start masturbating over how “clever” you think you are. ---
**Author:** ![Darlo\_Kubika](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darlo_kubika/32/178136_2.png) [@Darlo\_Kubika](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Darlo_Kubika)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 6:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/23 "2020-04-26T06:59:25Z")
> [@Norrin\_Ellis](#): > > The reason that CCP craps all over carebears is because they know carebears will bend over and take it, and keep paying for the privilege. They also know that carebears are interchangeable, so as long as the churn is managed to keep a relatively stable number of people, it doesn’t matter if those are the same people as last month or not. > > The PvP folks pay for multiple accounts. EVE fills a niche for the sadistic bully in them that they can’t find anywhere else, and to ensure that their predatory behavior against carebears doesn’t really affect their supply line, they’ve got an armada of automated alts hiding out in the protection of the blue donut harvesting a metric crapton of resources on an hourly basis. > > CCP also doesn’t have a particularly high cost per unit of service anymore. Their principal expense is in keeping the dev team making terrible changes, but they’ve already made the capital investment for the game’s principal code base and their technology infrastructure, so they could lose a lot of accounts without much financial turmoil. At any point, they can decide not to keep updating the game other than actual bug fixes and save a ton of money on labor costs, too. > > The only way for the carebears to have their voices heard is for pretty much ALL of them to decide not to pay anymore and go alpha, PLUS not provide any easy targets for the PvPers so that some of them get bored and leave, too. Basically, the bears would all have to use EVE as nothing more than a free chatbox for several months in order for CCP to care even the slightest bit about what makes the game enjoyable for them. All this is not relevant facing decreasing numbers… And it’s not PVP that leaves the game. Fact is the ‘minority’ is maybe 5k,which is not even close to be enough for profit and knowing this annoying,anti PVE patches like the actual are suicidal… This clearly shows that CCP lost their way to a point they really don’t know what to do anymore,they fall from a (good) pve favor right into the other extreme(current anti PVE patch) and THIS is ’ a good buisness decision’? Maybe in your world… ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/24 "2020-04-26T07:00:46Z")
> [@Norrin\_Ellis](#): > > PLUS not provide any easy targets for the PvPers so that some of them get bored and leave, too. Carebears have the ability to do this at any time. Nobody is forcing them to be lazy and incompetent and give up easy kills, at any time they could choose to use the defensive tools they have and succeed at EVE without any meaningful risk of loss. But they won’t do that because an essential part of the carebear identity is being a helpless perma-victim whose only conceivable response to adversity is to whine on the forums and demand an easier game. ---
**Author:** ![Darlo\_Kubika](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darlo_kubika/32/178136_2.png) [@Darlo\_Kubika](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Darlo_Kubika)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/25 "2020-04-26T07:08:14Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Carebears have the ability to do this at any time. Nobody is forcing them to be lazy and incompetent and give up easy kills, at any time they could choose to use the defensive tools they have and succeed at EVE without any meaningful risk of loss. But they won’t do that because an essential part of the carebear identity is being a helpless perma-victim whose only conceivable response to adversity is to whine on the forums and demand an easier game. There is no reason why pvp should be allowed to ‘gank a helpless target’ at least in high. That’s no ‘carebear problem’,that’s a problem of the self-awareness of pvp. Real PVP players don’t WANT ‘helpless targets’,they want challenge and excitement,gankers are just trigger happy and shoot at everything that cannot shoot back. So real PVP players are not against a high without PVP because EVEN with one there still will be PVP ingame. Just no ganks in high…which-as you can see- is a problem for all those that oppose a pvp free high because of ‘no easy,no risk free targets left’… ---
**Author:** ![Norrin\_Ellis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/norrin_ellis/32/150282_2.png) [@Norrin\_Ellis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Norrin_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/26 "2020-04-26T07:08:30Z")
Any carebear engaged in a carebear activity (and doing it efficiently) is in a boat that is an easy target for any PvPer. Mining is done in mining barges, and if you want the best yield, you’re not armed (or tanked, really). PvE missions require certain fits that, while great for combat with NPCs, are terrible for combat with other players. Your argument is absurd because it boils down to “if carebears want to get gud they should become PvPers.” That’s precisely what they don’t enjoy about the game and have spent years adapting to, patch after patch, so that they keep their losses to sadistic bullies minimal. Eventually, however, each individual carebear will decide that enough enjoyment has been sucked out of the game for them that they’ll leave. My point stands, however, that as long as another one is willing to pay for a month to replace the one that leaves, CCP has no incentive to change. In the short run, it’s even advantageous for CCP to screw carebears because some of them will decide that adding that second account to make up for the loss of single-account efficiency while still minimizing losses is worth the price. Bonus for CCP because now they get paid twice (or three times) as much by the person they just nerfed. As for me, I’m an alpha that spins my ships in station all day, so I’ve got no dog in the fight anyway. I stopped doing anything meaningful back when CCP shut down all player-run gambling because Somer was an RMTing bastard. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/27 "2020-04-26T07:13:17Z")
> [@Darlo\_Kubika](#): > > There is no reason why pvp should be allowed to ‘gank a helpless target’ at least in high. Sure there is. It benefits the PvE players who _aren’t_ helpless targets. It forces both the ganked player and their attackers to buy new ships, increasing demand for production. And it has a chance of driving the ganked player out of the game, removing a competitor from the market and driving up sale prices for the producers who remain. But really the question you should be asking is why there are helpless targets in the first place? Why are lazy and incompetent players making themselves into helpless targets when they have plenty of tools for not being helpless targets available? > So real PVP players are not against a high without PVP because EVEN with one there still will be PVP ingame. You’re right, and this is what I keep trying to get you to understand: the primary victims of your proposed changes are PvE players. PvP players will just do their PvP in the space where it is allowed, it’s the competent and successful PvE players who will see major nerfs to their income because less-competent rivals are allowed to flood the market with excess production while demand for new ships decreases. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/28 "2020-04-26T07:16:44Z")
> [@Norrin\_Ellis](#): > > Any carebear engaged in a carebear activity (and doing it efficiently) is in a boat that is an easy target for any PvPer. Nonsense. You can use d-scan for early warning, stay aligned and warp out of a potential threat appears, fit tank to survive long enough for CONCORD to destroy the attacker, do PvE in groups that can overwhelm single attackers, etc. If you are an easy target it’s only because you are bad at EVE. > Mining is done in mining barges, and if you want the best yield, you’re not armed (or tanked, really). Well yes, this is what I mean about being bad at EVE and not using the tools you have: if you fit for maximum yield over tank and then ignore your surroundings while a gank ship moves into position then you have only yourself to blame for your loss. You could have avoided it by not making the assumption that you are never going to be attacked and taking appropriate actions to defend yourself. > Eventually, however, each individual carebear will decide that enough enjoyment has been sucked out of the game for them that they’ll leave. Excellent. And as a result prices will increase and the PvE players who are not bad at EVE will get wealthier and more powerful. Seems like a good thing to me! ---
**Author:** ![Darlo\_Kubika](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darlo_kubika/32/178136_2.png) [@Darlo\_Kubika](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Darlo_Kubika)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/29 "2020-04-26T07:19:21Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > But really the question you should be asking is why there are helpless targets in the first place? Why are lazy and incompetent players making themselves into helpless targets when they have plenty of tools for not being helpless targets available? Because not everybody WANTS competition like that? Forcing those players(aka the majority of mmog players those days) out of the game is the sole reason why this ‘95% of all noobs are leaving this game after the first month’ crap that batters this game is happening. Beside that veterans are leaving in great numbers,ecspecially after the last patch imposition. ‘Eve is not for them’,right? But how many of those leaves this game can affort.seemingly,regarding to ccps own numbers not much is replacing leaving players and a solution to turn this around is nowhere to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/30 "2020-04-26T07:20:51Z")
> [@Darlo\_Kubika](#): > > Because not everybody WANTS competition like that? Then EVE is not the game for them. EVE’s mining/industry/etc is meant to be a game of competitive capitalism where you ruthlessly crush your rivals on the way to the top of your industrial empire, not a menial game of passive wealth accumulation. Do not try to ruin the game for people who enjoy EVE’s player-driven economy just because you’re too lacking in skill to succeed. ---
**Author:** ![Darlo\_Kubika](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darlo_kubika/32/178136_2.png) [@Darlo\_Kubika](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Darlo_Kubika)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/31 "2020-04-26T07:21:59Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Then EVE is not the game for them. EVE’s mining/industry/etc is meant to be a game of competitive capitalism where you ruthlessly crush your rivals on the way to the top of your industrial empire, not a menial game of passive wealth accumulation. Do not try to ruin the game for people who enjoy EVE’s player-driven economy just because you’re too lacking in skill to succeed. Eve is not for eve veterans? Do you even listen to yourself? Do you reread what you are trying to post? 🙂 Before you post it? ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/32 "2020-04-26T07:23:22Z")
> [@Darlo\_Kubika](#): > > Eve is not for eve veterans? Not if those veterans are entitled carebear parasites. They can GTFO and all of the successful industrial players will be glad to see them go. ---
**Author:** ![Darlo\_Kubika](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darlo_kubika/32/178136_2.png) [@Darlo\_Kubika](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Darlo_Kubika)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/33 "2020-04-26T07:23:54Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Not if those veterans are entitled carebear parasites. They can GTFO and all of the successful industrial players will be glad to see them go. Well this is a whole new level of ignorance and stupidness. And parasites are gankers that feast on helpless targets… ---
**Author:** ![Norrin\_Ellis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/norrin_ellis/32/150282_2.png) [@Norrin\_Ellis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Norrin_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/34 "2020-04-26T07:24:56Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > You can use d-scan for early warning, stay aligned and warp out of a potential threat appears Here, you’re just making my point for me. Spending half their time reading the d-scan, running away, and docking up isn’t fun for a lot of players, so the very act of avoiding the unwinnable conflict takes away as much enjoyment from the game as losing the unwinnable conflict. > [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > fit tank to survive long enough for CONCORD to destroy the attacker CCP is making this nearly impossible for the very ships where this is the only line of defense other than running away, to the point that I’ve seen people like you tell miners a thousand times just not to fly Retrievers because they can’t withstand an attack (even from Triglavian NPCs) long enough to warp out, much less wait for CONCORD to come along and kill a player. > [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > do PvE in groups I didn’t realize that there was always a group of people available for any particular player to join that is willing to either do the same things or sit idly waiting to defend a ship that’s going to die anyway if it’s primaried. Not to mention, the very people you group with in EVE can’t really be trusted not to screw you themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/35 "2020-04-26T07:25:00Z")
> [@Darlo\_Kubika](#): > > I am a whole new level of ignorance and stupidness. Yep, and that’s why I want you gone. I care about my personal success in EVE, not losers like you. And if everyone like you ragequits I get more ISK. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/36 "2020-04-26T07:27:23Z")
> [@Norrin\_Ellis](#): > > Here, you’re just making my point for me. Spending half their time reading the d-scan, running away, and docking up isn’t fun for a lot of players, so the very act of avoiding the unwinnable conflict takes away as much enjoyment from the game as losing the unwinnable conflict. IOW, “EVE is not fun if I have to work for it, I want a menial farming game where I passively accumulate wealth without having to work for it”. Too bad because EVE is not that game, nor should it be. > I’ve seen people like you tell miners a thousand times just not to fly Retrievers because they can’t withstand an attack And maybe if miners bothered to listen to this advice they would be ganked less frequently. > I didn’t realize that there was always a group of people available for any particular player to join Then maybe that player should take some initiative and form a group instead of passively waiting for someone to hand them farming opportunities. EVE is supposed to be a game where the competent and ambitious succeed at the expense of everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Darlo\_Kubika](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darlo_kubika/32/178136_2.png) [@Darlo\_Kubika](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Darlo_Kubika)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/37 "2020-04-26T07:27:29Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Yep, and that’s why I want you gone. I care about my personal success in EVE, not losers like you. And if everyone like you ragequits I get more ISK. Ah now we are editing post and turn them around? No more reasonable bullets left? ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/38 "2020-04-26T07:28:33Z")
> [@Darlo\_Kubika](#): > > Ah now we are editing post and turn them around? When all you have to offer is the same boring insults and smug declarations of your own imagined superiority then yes, I’m going to edit your posts to mock you. Don’t like it? Feel free to stop posting garbage. ---
**Author:** ![Norrin\_Ellis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/norrin_ellis/32/150282_2.png) [@Norrin\_Ellis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Norrin_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/39 "2020-04-26T07:29:12Z")
Pot, meet Kettle. ---
**Author:** ![Darlo\_Kubika](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darlo_kubika/32/178136_2.png) [@Darlo\_Kubika](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Darlo_Kubika)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/40 "2020-04-26T07:30:10Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > When all you have to offer is the same boring insults and smug declarations of your own imagined superiority yes, I’m going to edit your posts to mock you. Don’t like it? Feel free to stop posting garbage. There is no imagined superority… I know what is better for the game,you just want to keep its current status even at the cost of its end as long as it ‘stays as it is’ until the end… ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186/41 "2020-04-26T07:31:33Z")
> [@Darlo\_Kubika](#): > > I know what is better for the game You really don’t. You don’t even grasp basic concepts like the fact that 95% of 1 million players is more than 1% of 10 million players. All you know is how to whine and cry about how CCP needs to make the game easier because you don’t have the skill to succeed otherwise. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-and-conflict-promotion/235186.md?page=3)