# Surgical Strike Update Follow-up **URL:** \ **Category:** Upcoming Features & Changes\ **Created:** [April 8, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061 "2020-04-08T19:04:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 12:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/452 "2020-04-13T12:44:11Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > But command boosts are not limited to a group. claiming otherwise is wrong. Considering I never made that claim I have no idea why you are going on about this. All I said was that Command Boosts show that CCP can restrict without doing weird workarounds, and those restrictions (or lack of restrictions) can be different for different types of ships. So the code base already exists for them to limit Boosters on FAX but not other ships. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 12:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/453 "2020-04-13T12:49:21Z")
Yeah, you claimed they were limited per ship, which is what is actually wrong. Command boosters are limited to groups, not to ships. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > But CCP clearly can limit modules on a per ship basis also in their engine. Since command boosts are. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > So the code base already exists for them to limit Boosters on FAX but not other ships. Yeah but doing so would be bad. What could be doable, is to reduce the effect of cap boosters on fax, and create a new group of boosters that are not reduced but limited to 1 of the same type group per ship. But then it becomes a lot of fiddling with numbers and ■■■■, just to make the game more complex. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 12:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/454 "2020-04-13T12:53:41Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Yeah but doing so would be bad. Why? Why is it bad for FAX to be limited to only 1 Cap Booster? Because that’s exactly what CCP is planning to do, and you’ve been blathering on about rubbish, and inventing things other people have said to argue against them. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 1:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/455 "2020-04-13T13:05:12Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Why is it bad for FAX to be limited to only 1 Cap Booster? BECAUSE YOU CAN T DO IT WITHOUT MAKING A LOT OF COMPLEX CHANGES All the other ships can fit their class of cap boosters ; only cap cap booster would be limited to dreads, titans, carriers, supers ? That’s just an arbitrary exception that makes no sense. As other people said (while answering to me actually), the correct way to do that would be to make a mix of fitting modifications, traits modifications, and cap RR modifications , NOT to completely ■■■■ over all the game mechanism. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 1:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/456 "2020-04-13T13:31:27Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > BECAUSE YOU CAN T DO IT WITHOUT MAKING A LOT OF COMPLEX CHANGES Except they can. Ignore your weird theory of how stuff works or doesn’t behind the scenes. Lets just run with the assumption that if CCP say “We can restrict FAX to 1 cap booster” that they can do it technically. Why is this bad? ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 1:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/457 "2020-04-13T13:56:28Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Why is this bad? I just answered this exact question previously. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 1:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/458 "2020-04-13T13:57:10Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Except they can. Except they literally can’t. That’s why they did not do what they expected to do. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 1:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/459 "2020-04-13T13:59:39Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > I just answered this exact question previously. Lets pretend that your answer was really unclear and rambling, and sounded like it focused on the technical coding aspects of the update and not the player side issues. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Except they literally can’t. That’s why they did not do what they expected to do. Except they did. What is on Sisi is the first iteration of the update, where all caps were going to be restricted. They haven’t updated Sisi with all the changes in this thread. Just because this thread came out before the update rolled to Sisi doesn’t mean anything. Sisi still needs QC checks done on it, and to be made into a proper build, so stuff coming out on Sisi was decided on weeks ago and coded a while back. But, as above, lets pretend that they do what they have said, and only restrict FAX to 1 cap booster. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 2:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/460 "2020-04-13T14:03:32Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Lets pretend that your answer was really unclear and rambling No. I answered this exact question previously. Now since you are not able to understand the answer, you have nothing to add to the discussion besides your stupidity. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Except they did. No they did not. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > lets pretend that they do what they have said, and only restrict FAX to 1 cap booster. No. Because as they wrote, this literally can’t be done. If you don’t understand that they wrote exactly this, you are a complete idiot who can’t accept what is literally written. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/461 "2020-04-13T14:04:02Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > that they wrote exactly this Citation needed from a CCP source. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 2:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/462 "2020-04-13T14:07:10Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Citation needed from a CCP source. Or not. ATM the engine does not support to limit to one type/group on a specific ship, they need to rewrite this. So no, it’s just not possible. So yes it needs a lot of complex works, and so a lot of bug potential. so literally > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > BECAUSE YOU CAN T DO IT WITHOUT MAKING A LOT OF COMPLEX CHANGES I mean, here you are just showing your ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 2:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/463 "2020-04-13T14:08:43Z")
Ah yes, because you work at CCP and clearly know what is possible and what isn’t. not to mention you are busy contradicting yourself from above where you were trying to lay into me earlier about ‘specific ship’. So… Yeah, I’ll just leave you to have fun in your little corner of “I know more than CCP does” and not addressing any of the actual points, enjoy! P.S. Quoting yourself is not a valid source. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 2:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/464 "2020-04-13T14:09:31Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Ah yes, because you work at CCP and clearly know what is possible and what isn’t. And yet you are so full of ■■■■ you pretend it’s possible without a proof. PS : quoting myself is a valid source of what I wrote, and that again your complete stupidity made you misunderstand. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > not to mention you are busy contradicting yourself from above where you were trying to lay into me earlier about ‘specific ship’. So… BS. You were the one claiming things that are false, I corrected you. You made false statement. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Kins\_Cider](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/d_kins_cider/32/311808_2.png) [@D\_Kins\_Cider](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/D_Kins_Cider)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 10:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/465 "2020-04-13T22:45:03Z")
> [@James\_Baboli](#): > > Procurer w/ 2 mining laser upgrade IIs YPM:1082.4m3 > Covetor w/ 3 mining laser upgrade IIs YPM: 1572m3 > > ~50% increase in yield says it’s worth it IF you have circumstances you can use the Covetor in. > Retriever decreases single toon downtime, or reduces cargo management if boxing/fleet mining. > Use cases for both for you. Doesn’t mean they’re particularly good ones for every case, and tank is almost always gonna be my vote but… I do a fair bit of mining, and this matches my understanding well. tl;dr If I want to get my heartrate going, I don’t go mining. Even with full Orca support, I still prefer to mine in a Procurer/Skiff, and accept the slightly lower ISK/hr for the vastly improved survivability. Sure, I’ll need to pay more now for that survivability (I’ll probably upgrade the invulns to Pith C-Types or maybe Gistum B-Types). Yes, in safe (low profitability) areas I can mine in a Covetor/Hulk with Orca (dual orca better) support - but then I’m jetcanning just as quick as I can at that point, and it’s WAY more stressful than using a Procurer/Skiff. Frankly, mining is a low risk/low reward activity (some would say medium/medium, it can be if you get it right I suppose, but most don’t) - but that’s exactly why I don’t want to do it in a Covetor/Hulk - the risk increases dramatically for a FA increase to reward. If I want a heart-attack every time something lands on grid, there’s much more profitable activities - that’s the very nature of mining. ---
**Author:** ![James\_Baboli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_baboli/32/408702_2.png) [@James\_Baboli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Baboli)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 11:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/466 "2020-04-13T23:31:15Z")
Careful. At the EHP/isk dropable ratio you would have, those invulns on that ship increase your target profile. ---
**Author:** ![Onictus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/onictus/32/277200_2.png) [@Onictus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Onictus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 5:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/467 "2020-04-14T05:49:11Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Why? > Why is it bad for FAX to be limited to only 1 Cap Booster? > Because that’s exactly what CCP is planning to do, and you’ve been blathering on about rubbish, and inventing things other people have said to argue against them. Because when you jump you land at 25% cap With a cap and three heavy injectors it takes three full cycles to get back to jump cap (with navy 3200) with a single cap injector you don’t have the headspace to run your reppers for more than a couple cycles before you cap out. You can NOT cap chain triaged FAXs You can ONLY inject. This means that active tanked FAXs are a thing of the past and buffer tanked FAXs become a space ornament under the slightest cap pressure. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 7:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/468 "2020-04-14T07:34:59Z")
Ok, so FAX have a hard time jumping into a fight. Now explain why this is a bad thing restricting hot drop oclock to ships relying on local tank and having them come in at a disadvantage. The active tanking issue, that may be a slightly bigger question, and probably needs some proper comparison with other ship classes on how hard it is to active tank FAX vs anything else. I’m not able to work up some sample numbers tonight so I’d be interested to see what numbers you have on bare hull + rep for FAX compared to say, Battleships. ---
**Author:** ![Onictus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/onictus/32/277200_2.png) [@Onictus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Onictus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 7:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/469 "2020-04-14T07:38:47Z")
[quote=“Nevyn\_Auscent, post:468, topic:231061”] Ok, so FAX have a hard time jumping into a fight. Now explain why this is a bad thing restricting hot drop oclock to ships relying on local tank and having them come in at a disadvantage. [/quote] Because this FURTHER tilts the advantage to the defender, if I can fight on my undock, I am significantly less vulnerable [quote=“Nevyn\_Auscent, post:468, topic:231061”] The active tanking issue, that may be a slightly bigger question, and probably needs some proper comparison with other ship classes on how hard it is to active tank FAX vs anything else. [/quote] Comparison is easy, to any other logistics class in the game, there is no, there is no cap cap chain, there is no cross rep, there is nothing you are an island to yourself, and oh by the way, the Ninazu and Lif are effectively deleted > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > I’m not able to work up some sample numbers tonight so I’d be interested to see what numbers you have on bare hull + rep for FAX compared to say, Battleships. See that is the thing, that was already the only time you used BSs, under FAX reps, they just don’t survive otherwise. But again, no cap, no reps. Get it? got it? Good. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 7:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/470 "2020-04-14T07:39:48Z")
> [@Onictus](#): > > Get it? got it? Good. So… Not going to give any actual numbers to prove that FAX are actually worse off than other ship classes when it comes to active tanking? ---
**Author:** ![Onictus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/onictus/32/277200_2.png) [@Onictus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Onictus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 7:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061/471 "2020-04-14T07:42:10Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > So… Not going to give any actual numbers to prove that FAX are actually worse off than other ship classes when it comes to active tanking? You don’t get it, caps START at 25% capacitor after jump, how many times do I have to repeat myself. There is no comparison to subs, they don’t have the same mechanics, bridging doesn’t eat 75% of your capacitor. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061.md?page=17) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/surgical-strike-update-follow-up/231061.md?page=19)