# The 2023 ganking is good (or Ebil) megathread **URL:** \ **Category:** Crime & Punishment\ **Created:** [January 4, 2023, 1:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430 "2023-01-04T01:12:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Captain\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/captain_phil/32/439809_2.png) [@Captain\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Captain_Phil)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 11:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/204 "2023-01-22T23:28:15Z")
> So typical for your kind. what kind is that? > You actually don’t know how it works what is ‘it’? > right now This is where you an I agree. Since 2006, there have been many iterations of these mechanics, how could one reasonable keep up with all the changes? I mean, it’s CONCORD that warp scrambles and the Navy that webs, right? Or did I get _that_ backwards too? ---
**Author:** ![Vokan\_Narkar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vokan_narkar/32/326293_2.png) [@Vokan\_Narkar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vokan_Narkar)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2023, 11:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/205 "2023-01-22T23:47:54Z")
> [@Captain\_Phil](#): > > what kind is that? Its a kind that is zealously engaging in discussions about ganking, claiming how is ganking bad for the game, unbalanced, too easy, too profitable and whatsnot and that then throws a ridiculous suggestions of how would it be better. Yet their real goal is to remove ganking from the game not to make it any more balanced or whatever. A nasty and dishonest kind of players that only think of themselves. > [@Captain\_Phil](#): > > what is ‘it’? Mechanics of the highsec suicide ganking and security status? What else. > [@Captain\_Phil](#): > > This is where you an I agree. Since 2006, there have been many iterations of these mechanics, how could one reasonable keep up with all the changes? I mean, it’s CONCORD that warp scrambles and the Navy that webs, right? Or did I get _that_ backwards too? You know it would be nice if you guys actually learned how the mechanics works before suggesting a supposed “fix”. Then it often happens, like in your case, that they are suggesting something that doesn’t differ from what we have now, or even they are suggesting something that CCP, in their foolishness, already nerfed. Then you guys look like fools. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/captain_phil/32/439809_2.png) [@Captain\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Captain_Phil)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 12:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/206 "2023-01-23T00:11:37Z")
I never said ganking was bad, or unbalanced, or easy, or too profitable, so my post must fall into the category of ‘whatsnot’. > You know it would be nice if you guys actually learned how the mechanics works before suggesting a supposed “fix”. Then it often happens, like in your case, that they are suggesting something that doesn’t differ from what we have now, or even they are suggesting something that CCP, in their foolishness, already nerfed. Then you guys look like fools. I’ve read a lot on mechanics. If I waited until I knew everything about everything in EvE before making a post, I would never post at all. In addition, because I posted, I learned new perspectives, gained a better understanding of old perspectives, and learned more about _current_ mechanics. Looking ‘foolish’ has _always_ been to my benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 12:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/207 "2023-01-23T00:43:50Z")
> [@Captain\_Phil](#): > > I’ve read a lot on mechanics. That’s a very good start. I would say the next step is to implement it and gain personal experience. If you ever want to get into some high sec shenanigans and play around with these mechanics and timers let me know. And I’m taking about suicide ganking. Things like MTU hunting, ninja salvaging and looting and baiting players. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/captain_phil/32/439809_2.png) [@Captain\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Captain_Phil)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 12:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/208 "2023-01-23T00:48:24Z")
I suppose I may as well. Have you got a crew in the US TZ? ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 12:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/209 "2023-01-23T00:51:13Z")
Yes, me. The bulk of R1FTA is european time zones. Darth and marta are -10 cause they do a bunch of low sec piracy. But I might be able to get Jameson involved. ---
**Author:** ![Elizabet\_Forgrave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elizabet_forgrave/32/457166_2.png) [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elizabet_Forgrave)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 12:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/210 "2023-01-23T00:59:53Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Meanwhile, players in low-sec fight for lots of other reasons than just killing someone for the lulz. They still need to destroy pods as part of fleet warfare, which is _technically_ considered criminal activity. With your idea, these players are going to have _permanent_ consequences in high-sec, despite not being gankers or criminals. As an example of this, I fight in lowsec and I rarely ever kill pods there yet I live perpetually in negative sec status. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 1:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/211 "2023-01-23T01:15:35Z")
Verified by Zkill, Pleasantly surprised! Take a like. But I do have a question. You give Altara a rough time over station bashing, yet on the first page shows 2 stations you were involved in bashing. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Elizabet\_Forgrave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elizabet_forgrave/32/457166_2.png) [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elizabet_Forgrave)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 1:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/212 "2023-01-23T01:21:02Z")
Spectre were doing them. To be clear though I don’t have problems with fighting over stations, what I have an issue with is people who farm undefended structures then pretend it’s amazing PvP. Generally I’ll only show up to a structure fight if we can pretty much guarantee a strong opposition. The ahbazon fights have been pretty crazy, especially those latest ones. There are fights we’ve had on the structures there we’ve lost too so those obviously won’t show on the kb as a structure kill. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 6:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/213 "2023-01-23T06:56:25Z")
> [@Captain\_Phil](#): > > I assume that a pilot who has a negative sec status has committed enough criminal acts to warrant that status. As I’ve tried to tell you, this is simply not true: > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > you somehow think “sec status == criminal acts only” (hint: it is not) I went from 5.0 to 0.0 without ever having a criminal timer. I think I had my first criminal timer once I was already below -2.0. I appreciate that you’re willing to put your opinions out there, and are open to correction. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 7:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/214 "2023-01-23T07:38:37Z")
> [@Captain\_Phil](#): > > I think this is the Achilles heel to your argument: I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect me to commit a criminal act in order to defend myself from a character that has a history of ganking, hence my killright suggestion. While no killright != no threat, an existing killright with a value attached would give me lengthy recourse against a known criminal with positive sec status, without needing to go criminal myself. You may not think it reasonable, because of some self-imposed inhibition you have. I don’t care if it’s rooted in morality, game mechanics, or mentality: at the end of the day it is _inhibiting_ you from making use of all game mechanics available to you. There are _other players_ out there who have no such inhibitions. The “Achilles heel” to your argument is, in turn, you can always befriend (whether by social force/charisma, or cold hard ISK) those folks to carry out your will as necessary. You get to keep your inhibitions for your day to day playstyle. The problem is people keep demanding “more” along two dimensions: 1) Cost and 2) Skipping sandbox engagement. Yes, it actually _costs_ to hire mercenaries to satisfy your revenge. Which is fair, as it actualy _cost_ the gankers in the first place to do the gank (time and ships destroyed by CONCORD). They may have made a profit, but that is chalked up to their _skill and planning_. Too many people looking for nice packaged “in-game recourses brought to you by CCP” (whether kill rights, etc) basically are doing it to avoid having to pay _any cost_ whatsoever to satisfy their idea of revenge, without needing any skill nor planning. Getting paid for their killrights gets this exactly the backwards and wrong way: the victim _gets paid_ for being too weak to get revenge themselves and refusing to hire mercenaries. But, that’s not all. The bigger problem is reflected in your repeat proposals, which is **wanting a shiny CCP-provided mechanic to “engage the sandbox” for you**. This problem, tied with your personal inhibition of actions, means you _neither_: - Take matters into your own hands; nor - Work with / Pay for others to execute your will This self-defeatest attitude should be _appropriately_ rewarded (IMO: very little) in a cold harsh universe. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 4:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/215 "2023-01-23T16:06:41Z")
> [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](#): > > people who farm undefended structures then pretend it’s amazing PvP. Let’s be honest, There really isn’t “amazing” pvp in this game. Playing up a kill as “epic” is kinda silly. Fun is another thing. ---
**Author:** ![Erkkinnen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/erkkinnen/32/391080_2.png) [@Erkkinnen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Erkkinnen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 4:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/216 "2023-01-23T16:56:51Z")
> [@Eniarc](#): > > Now, delete my account, Can I has ur stuffs? ---
**Author:** ![Elizabet\_Forgrave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elizabet_forgrave/32/457166_2.png) [@Elizabet\_Forgrave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elizabet_Forgrave)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 5:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/217 "2023-01-23T17:03:57Z")
Yeah true, but at least taking a fight with an active opponent adds an element of risk. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 6:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/218 "2023-01-23T18:01:16Z")
Yes, that is very true. But as a high sec troublemaker, I can say this, I’ve baited a few mission runners who, couldn’t defend themselves properly, and I thought I had the kill in the bag when one of their buddies show up and showed me who was boss. Now granted that’s not the same as a gank as ganks have to happen quickly for 2 reasons. 1) get the kill before CONCORD shows up and 2) their buddies. Even for us, the rule, you have no idea who is watching you still applies. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 8:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/219 "2023-01-23T20:24:37Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > Too many people looking for nice packaged “in-game recourses brought to you by CCP” (whether kill rights, etc) basically are doing it to avoid having to pay _any cost_ whatsoever to satisfy their idea of revenge It doesn’t get more asymmetrically absurd than me having 10 seconds in which to gank…while the gankee gets 28 days ( quarter of a million times longer ) in which to exercise a kill right. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 8:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/220 "2023-01-23T20:30:29Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > There really isn’t “amazing” pvp in this game. Oh but there is when _I’m_ doing it…especially if it annoys anti PvP people. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2023, 9:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/221 "2023-01-23T21:11:00Z")
Well, there is that! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/captain_phil/32/439809_2.png) [@Captain\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Captain_Phil)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2023, 3:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/222 "2023-01-24T03:22:53Z")
> As I’ve tried to tell you, this is simply not true On second thought, I recall incurring standing loss by attacking POCOs in low sec. I know better. > You may not think it reasonable > making use of all game mechanics available to you. When I use the term ‘reasonable’ please interpret that as “I believe a majority of players and/or developers can be persuaded by this viewpoint.” I _do_ believe you are wrong and that, using your logic of ‘use all mechanics available’, only two true versions of “highsec” can exist, with what we currently have being a perversion. Let’s approach this like a math equation. I will begin by making a few statements: 1. Reasonable measures already exist to deal with outlaws 2. Reasonable measures already exist to deal with war-eligible corporations 3. A ‘known criminal’ is defined as someone I do **not** have an active kill right on _and_ who is **not** and outlaw _and_ is **not** a member of a corporation eligible for war 4. Ganking is defined as non-consensual pvp If I have the same tools available as my criminal adversary, then we might be able to say that both sides of the equation are equal: gank pvp = gank pvp And like an equation, we’ll substitute ‘gank’ for ‘non-consensual’ (the way you would sub m/s² in for acceleration): non-consensual pvp = non-consensual pvp What I argue is that this describes lowsec, nullsec, wormholes; every other region of space where you would naturally look to exercise all pvp options available. This, in turn, leaves two “true” options for highsec: No highsec, or a highsec where ganking is prohibited. If **no one** is allowed to gank, then we _all_ have the same options available to us. I think both of these outcomes are bad. What I was trying to accomplish with my initial proposal was extend the lifetime of meaningful defense against someone I had a kill right on. By increasing the stakes for my criminal adversary, I may be more motivated to leverage pvp options to address the issue. If I am expected to fight ganks with ganks, then I may as well live in any other region of space. The obvious counter to my proposal’s intent, as has been said repeatedly: Players will always want more, and more, and more please critique ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2023, 3:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430/223 "2023-01-24T03:36:39Z")
> [@Captain\_Phil](#): > > What I was trying to accomplish with my initial proposal was extend the lifetime of meaningful defense against someone I had a kill right on. By increasing the stakes for my criminal adversary, I may be more motivated to leverage pvp options to address the issue. Being a criminal in EVE is a temporary condition. It is temporary because EVE is a video game, and not real life. Creating permanent consequences for in-game actions would amount to fundamentally flawed game design, as people would try to subvert such consequences through exploitative means, or maybe even stop playing entirely. So, on the condition that criminality is temporary, the onus is on _you_ to prove why the “lifetime of meaningful defense against someone you had a kill right on” needs to be extended. Can you prove mathematically that the _current_ lifetime is insufficient, and needs to be increased so as to make the system more balanced? Before the merits of your proposal are considered, you first must define a _need_ for the solution, and considering how stacked the system already is against criminals in EVE, you have your work cut out for you. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430.md?page=10) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-2023-ganking-is-good-or-ebil-megathread/390430.md?page=12)