# The Amarr / Minmatar Warzone Accord - On Loyalty and Roles **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [November 18, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544 "2019-11-18T20:06:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 11:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/21 "2019-11-18T23:49:47Z")
I bet. You act like actions don’t spur on reactions. Your systems are held by our forces right? ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 11:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/22 "2019-11-18T23:52:17Z")
If that’s your plan, good luck. You will need it before the end. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 11:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/23 "2019-11-18T23:58:12Z")
One man’s apocalypse is another man’s victory. ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 12:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/24 "2019-11-19T00:01:47Z")
Pretty clear which one you’re working toward. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 4:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/25 "2019-11-19T04:28:00Z")
When your opponent is busy making themselves look bad all by themselves, there is no reason to interfere. (Corollary: if you can see the opponent looks like a moron in public, so can the general audience. No need to point it out to them; just sit back and enjoy the show.) Credit to Elsebeth Rhiannon, PR 101 ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 4:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/26 "2019-11-19T04:50:59Z")
While I agree with what you said, have I ever come across as a good diplomat or good at pr to you? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 5:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/27 "2019-11-19T05:36:58Z")
I just think it’s funny to watch an Amarr ‘loyalist’ try to come up with excuses for why he’s disobeying an Heir in the specific parts of space _and_ specific purposes—the CEWPA war in that part of lowsec—that the Empress has given that Heir direct command over. ‘No, your Imperial Majesty, I know Lord Sarum’s specifically declared doing _exactly_ what I’m doing to be treason, but it’s totally not because I said so!’ I imagine that line of reasoning is going over about as well as a granite flotation device. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 7:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/28 "2019-11-19T07:10:55Z")
Hey, somebody gets why I find this funny… ---
**Author:** ![Rinai\_Vero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rinai_vero/32/390870_2.png) [@Rinai\_Vero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rinai_Vero)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 9:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/29 "2019-11-19T09:38:04Z")
> [@Karmilla\_Strife](#): > > I was not a wealthy pilot when I joined PIE. While I spent most of my time plexing (back when there was no immediate reward) or joining fleets, the mission agents were my primary source of income. I would not have been able to lose more than a dozen ships before I would have been forced to retreat from the warzone and recuperate. What do you suggest a novice militia member is to do when you give up the mission agents and have your proxies attack Amarrian militia in plexes? Plexing is more than profitable enough to fund any new solo pilot, much less a pilot in an established militia corporation that should be able to hand out plexing ships by the dozens. Mission LP requires just as much logistics effort as plexing LP, and if mission running is so much safer than plexing that just illustrates how little use it actually is to the war effort. Anyway, it would be less than a trifle for the 24th Imperial Crusade or Tribal Liberation Force to reallocate LP / Isk funds from mission payments to better reward those who capture combat plexes instead. Mission running profiteers are a cancer on the warzone. Clearly there are flaws in the A/M Warzone Accord, but the fact that pilots and organizations with such longstanding loyalty have been pushed this far without recognition of such rampant corruption by Empire leaders is a travesty. Those militia pilots who signed this accord didn’t betray their governments, the governments have betrayed the militias by allowing this corruption to fester. After over a decade of service in the warzone, I am saddened to see these betrayals continue, but I am not surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 9:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/30 "2019-11-19T09:48:41Z")
I don’t care about profeteering, I don’t care about mercenaries, I don’t care about who will take which side. All enemies of the State WILL DIE! ---
**Author:** ![Claudia\_Osyn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/claudia_osyn/32/387939_2.png) [@Claudia\_Osyn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Claudia_Osyn)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 2:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/31 "2019-11-19T14:52:04Z")
Let your opponent sharpen their sword before watching them fall on it? ---
**Author:** ![Stalking\_Mantis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stalking_mantis/32/170173_2.png) [@Stalking\_Mantis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Stalking_Mantis)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 3:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/32 "2019-11-19T15:00:33Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I just think it’s funny to watch an Amarr ‘loyalist’ try to come up with excuses for why he’s disobeying an Heir in the specific parts of space _and_ specific purposes I will use your own words from another post regarding loyalty as a retort to your above comment. > As an example: A man serves his lord. The lord is prone to fits of depression and self-harm. If, in the throes of this depression, the lord orders the servant to bring him a firearm so that the lord can commit suicide, should the servant obey? The stance taken by the Exubitoris would see the servant do exactly that, and the lord then kill himself. > > This is not service. This is not loyalty. > _Service_ would demand that in such a situation, the truly loyal servant must have the courage to risk his lord’s wrath with disobedience. He must have the courage to say ‘no, sir, I cannot. If refuse out of concern for your welfare’. And it may be that this act will result in discipline. It is entirely possible that by disobeying, he enrages his lord and is punished and/or harmed for his insolence. That does not change the fact that his act was the _loyal_ choice, and the choice of faithful service, rather than mere obedience. It simply highlights that true service often requires courage. Good Day ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 3:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/33 "2019-11-19T15:41:54Z")
> [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > Mission running profiteers are a cancer on the warzone. Those who signed this deal have been among the most prolific in running those missions. > [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > pilots who signed this accord didn’t betray their governments You must have a peculiar definition of betrayal if handing over so many populated worlds to an enemy does not meet it. For quite some time, what they wanted to do coincided with what the Empire needed of them. I do not believe the majority of them have ever been loyal to anything but their greed and bloodlust. ---
**Author:** ![Stalking\_Mantis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stalking_mantis/32/170173_2.png) [@Stalking\_Mantis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Stalking_Mantis)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 3:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/34 "2019-11-19T15:45:34Z")
> [@Saronu\_Yassavi](#): > > I do not believe the majority of them have ever been loyal to anything but their greed and bloodlust. [You should brush up on your history](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629) , Few have shown Loyalty to Amarr like the Avenging Angels. ---
**Author:** ![Stalking\_Mantis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stalking_mantis/32/170173_2.png) [@Stalking\_Mantis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Stalking_Mantis)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/35 "2019-11-19T16:00:57Z")
@Ascentior @Gaven_Lok_ri _You’re keeping in step_ _In the line_ _Got your chin held high and you feel just fine_ _'cause you do_ _What you’re told_ _But inside your heart it is black and it’s hollow and it’s cold_ _Just how deep do you believe?_ _Will you bite the hand that feeds?_ _Will you chew until it bleeds?_ _Can you get up off your knees?_ _Are you brave enough to see?_ _Do you wanna change it?_ _What if this whole crusade’s a charade_ _And behind it all there’s a price to be paid_ _For the blood on which we dine_ _Justified in the name of the holy and the divine_ _Just how deep do you believe?_ _Will you bite the hand that feeds?_ _Will you chew until it bleeds?_ _Can you get up off your knees?_ _Are you brave enough to see?_ _Do you wanna change it?_ _So naive_ _I keep holding on to what I wanna believe_ _I can see_ _But I…_ Nine Inch Nails ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 4:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/36 "2019-11-19T16:42:31Z")
I’m familiar with their history, some of our most enduring mercenaries ones I’ve followed the careers of and at times found myself rooting for. Never naïve enough to quite lose sight of what they are. Their current tantrum illustrates their priorities. Profit, and the notion that the warzone is their playground. That they with terrorists who wish for the destruction of our people have conspired to impose such privations on so many people, because they feel the wrong ones were being paid. You’re quite right, mercifully your kind of loyalty is uncommon. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/37 "2019-11-19T17:52:30Z")
> [@Stalking\_Mantis](#): > > I will use your own words from another post regarding loyalty as a retort to your above comment. Sure. But that doesn’t mean any of that holds _any_ weight with the people you’re trying to use it with. In fact, if you look at the responses, you can see it pretty clearly doesn’t. So, with that in mind, and knowing that Sarum is _less_ forgiving than say, a softie like Mitara Newelle, you’re still trying it. To me, that’s funny. Now, if you’re going to go quoting me, you should pay especial attention to this bit: > [@Cowardice and the Amarr Empire](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cowardice-and-the-amarr-empire/197340/1): > > Adults make difficult decisions. Adults take responsibility for their own lives. And adults accept that their decisions have consequences. It often takes courage to face those consequences. What you are doing here is an attempt to _escape_ those consequences. If you want to take a stand on principles, then good for you! You do that! And then stand proudly, head high, as you face the repercussions and pay whatever price your actions extract, unflinchingly, eyes open. Don’t try to use the words of a Minmatar and a Goon to avoid and evade responsibility for your choices. Be a goddamned adult, not a child playing some half-assed game. ---
**Author:** ![Rinai\_Vero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rinai_vero/32/390870_2.png) [@Rinai\_Vero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rinai_Vero)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/38 "2019-11-19T18:19:42Z")
> [@Saronu\_Yassavi](#): > > Those who signed this deal have been among the most prolific in running those missions. So? I’ve earned millions of loyalty points running missions myself. That’s how I know just how broken the system is. What I’ve earned from them went right into funding more combat ships to keep up the fight, and was a drop in the ocean compared to what the farmers using illegal AI enhancements earn. > [@Saronu\_Yassavi](#): > > You must have a peculiar definition of betrayal if handing over so many populated worlds to an enemy does not meet it. They agreed to trade systems under a status quo where neither side had launched major ground assaults of contested worlds in the past. It was their leaders who decided to escalate the conflict to an unprecedented level specifically to undermine the Accord. I find it deeply disingenuous that many of the loudest voices criticizing this Accord were the very same people who spent years deriding the CEWPA conflict as the “Pendulum War” and claiming it had no impact on the local planetary populations. Obviously the Accord has flaws, GMVA leadership was particularly wary of pursuing a similar deal because of the history of economic and political exploitation of Federal Defense Cordon worlds by State Protectorate forces. This conflict has been a “dirty war” from the start, and it is pathetic to see you so called “knights” and “paladins” pretending that your hands are clean. I have more respect for people who at least attempted to take pragmatic action in response to the reality of this ongoing conflict. No respect at all for petty government officials far from the front lines who have decided to interfere now after years of neglect and corruption. ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/39 "2019-11-19T19:10:51Z")
> [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > I’ve earned millions of loyalty points running missions myself Did you do it intensively in the months before lobbying for the expulsion of your paymasters? > [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > They agreed to trade systems You say this as though what? It’s not a betrayal? Intentional relinquishment of sovereign territory for personal profit and aggrandisement is always betrayal. You grasp for the status quo, how moronic. They seek to destroy it and impose a new one, if they were counting upon it to protect civilians they’re as foolish as you are, more likely the fate of those dwelling on the planets was given no thought. War is neither dirty nor clean, it’s just war. I have spilled more than my share of blood, and when my time comes to be judged I pray that the ends justified those means. Such is the calculus of any soldier who has had to make hard choices, Knight, Paladin or otherwise. The choice you defend was not a soldier’s choice, there was no ambiguity. In success or failure a great many were going to die, their success is measured in wealth and infamy. They’re not soldiers, they’re pirates. Feel free to squander whatever credibility you have further defending the honour of a cohort of pirates who abandoned any pretext of true loyalty a long time before this disgraceful accord. ---
**Author:** ![Rinai\_Vero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rinai_vero/32/390870_2.png) [@Rinai\_Vero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rinai_Vero)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544/40 "2019-11-19T19:31:14Z")
> [@Saronu\_Yassavi](#): > > Feel free to squander whatever credibility you have further defending the honour of a cohort of pirates who abandoned any pretext of true loyalty a long time before this disgraceful accord. Tiresome posturing. Nothing in my comments had anything to do with their honor, if there is such a thing among any of you slave trading cultists. I’ve lived in the pragmatic reality of this war for over a decade. I’ve seen how abuse of the mission rewards drove the true profiteers and mercenaries who switch sides back and forth. When there was nothing for the truly loyal to do but fortify our few home systems and wait for the tide to change. No government did anything to address this any of the past times that _entire warzones_ flipped. You cloak yourself in the approval of your petty masters, but the truth is that instead of these few mission systems being at risk you and your ilk would perpetuate a system where profiteers drive the loss of _every_ system on either side back and forth in perpetuity. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-amarr-minmatar-warzone-accord-on-loyalty-and-roles/201544.md?page=3)