# The Argument for Mining Barges On Alpha Characters **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Tags:** balance\ **Created:** [November 10, 2020, 6:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035 "2020-11-10T06:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Aphrodite\_Sexy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aphrodite_sexy/32/420261_2.png) [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aphrodite_Sexy)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 1:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/61 "2020-11-19T13:17:07Z")
> [@Malfunction\_Sourcedata\_Error](#): > > That is a terrible analogy. No alpha is in the “New Eden Poverty zone” and they already have a wealth of opportunities. The wealth of opportunities are centered around one specific area of ratting. That sucks. Giving them some more opportunities somewhere else wouldn’t hurt. > [@Malfunction\_Sourcedata\_Error](#): > > Poor parenting also comes from not teaching children about reasonable expectations, instead giving them everything they want. Being able to drive T1 ships is a reasonable expectation by alphas. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/62 "2020-11-19T16:05:58Z")
> [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Uh huh. So they’re better than mining barges? No. But they’re not meant to be. You said a mining battleship can’t even carry a single cycle. I’m telling you they can. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Analogy So nothing. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > They don’t just do farming. It’s not like alphas who mine don’t do PVP. Also, ganking them is content. The majority are just farming. And if they have barges, an even greater majority will just farm. If so many Alphas are pvp’ing? Why are you trying to argue: _‘if they had more isk they’d pvp more’._ Ganking ventures and barges is far far more uncommon than you’re trying to let on. Ganking is so uncommon that CCP had to introduce a whole new NPC type just to do the job of gankers. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > People don’t bother going to lowsec to get 1m more isk/h. They might for 5m more isk/h. It’s about 8-9mil isk/h more for a venture. 25-26mil isk/h more for a barge. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > They should be happy with what they have but not happy enough. If they don’t like the game they have no reason to subscribe and believe they’d get more fun. They clearly are though. They are here whining that they want more. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > You do need an isk income. Also PVP is more fun when you ship is as good as the enemy’s. As an alpha your ship will never be as good as the enemies because of skill caps. But that’s the point. They aren’t meant to be happy. They are meant to want more. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > They might like mining more than ratting. Give them that choice. And? So what? Alphas aren’t designed to do either. They have access to combat ships so they can access a wider variety of pvp. Alphas have in fact been nerfed for ratting too well. Please read and understand: Alphas are not here to farm. They are not here to create wealth. They are here to create and be content. Their ratting ability is merely a by-product of giving them access to pvp. Of giving them the ability to destroy wealth. Everything else: Mining, industry, PI, exploration, trading is either completely inaccessible or greatly reduced accessibility. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > So a mining barge could just Thera into some nullsec place and start mining. They can even day trip in WH’s. They’re even less populated. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > But getting more alphas some more choice is worth some more ore. Also, they’re not gonna mine as much as exhumer fleets, so we’re fine. If there was some kind of benefit to having more barges in the game…but there isn’t. Especially not botting ones. Especially not ones that aren’t paying any money. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > More alphas mean more players, and more players that stick in the community. That’s the goal. But it’s only any good if they create content or pay-up. It’s hard to see how barges do either. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Yes, there’s bots. But CCP is really good at stopping bots and have done a great job so far. We should trust them. They can ban bots but alphas can just create a new account. So ccp have to restrict what alphas can do or nerf the ships they use. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Now, tell me why multiboxing is better than alphas mining. The monetary cost of omega serves as a ceiling for how much a player wants to multi-box as well as makes more money for CCP. Multi-boxing alphas don’t have such a ceiling and don’t make CCP any money. There is nothing good to come from mining alphas. Just more minerals we don’t need, more bots we don’t want and more semi-afk players not creating content. > [@Zombie Apocalypse Mining Bots - Need Help](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/zombie-apocalypse-mining-bots-need-help/241303): > > It seems that my 2 characters are not able to gank a fleet of Apocalypse mining bots in the System of Alakgur. There are about 8 of them 8 mining lasers, shield tanked. Takes 4 catalysts to gank and I only have 2. They don’t respond to bumping, they don’t respond to ganking attempts (Yes I failed) I am sure they are multi-alpha on one computer boxing via ?VM. 8 days old with BS and T2 fits for 20+ hours of mining. I mean 12 lasers on 1 small rock because it is the closest, really?1? The… ---
**Author:** ![Aphrodite\_Sexy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aphrodite_sexy/32/420261_2.png) [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aphrodite_Sexy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 2:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/63 "2020-11-20T02:33:44Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > No. But they’re not meant to be. If they’re not then there’s a point of introducing mining barges. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Why are you trying to argue: _‘if they had more isk they’d pvp more’._ Because it’s true. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Ganking ventures and barges is far far more uncommon than you’re trying to let on. Ganking is so uncommon that CCP had to introduce a whole new NPC type just to do the job of gankers. Well, the new NPCs are doing it right? > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > It’s about 8-9mil isk/h more for a venture. 25-26mil isk/h more for a barge. Oh ok. Well, maybe people will take more risk for 25 mil more isk/h but not 9 more. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > They clearly are though. They are here whining that they want more. Everybody wants more. I can’t prove that alphas are quitting but this argument is literally just “we think alphas aren’t happy enough about their mining career choices” > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > As an alpha your ship will never be as good as the enemies because of skill caps. > > But that’s the point. They aren’t meant to be happy. They are meant to want more. No, they’re meant to be happy and want more. I’ll repeat this. If they’re unhappy they won’t want to spend money. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Alphas aren’t designed to do either. They have access to combat ships so they can access a wider variety of pvp. Alphas have in fact been nerfed for ratting too well. Ratting too well is a problem. Ratting itself isn’t. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Alphas are not here to farm. They are not here to create wealth. They are here to create and be content. Their ratting ability is merely a by-product of giving them access to pvp. Of giving them the ability to destroy wealth. If they don’t create wealth they don’t get wealth. If they don’t have isk they can’t destroy isk very well. They’re a trial period and that’s how everybody treats them and that’s how everybody should treat them. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Everything else: Mining, industry, PI, exploration, trading is either completely inaccessible or greatly reduced accessibility. They’re allowed to do exploration (it’s quite a good way to make money as an alpha too), and a little trading. PI is blocked because it’s easy to bot and too many alphas exploiting planet resources makes it difficult. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > They can even day trip in WH’s. They’re even less populated. Yeah. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > If there was some kind of benefit to having more barges in the game…but there isn’t. Especially not botting ones. Especially not ones that aren’t paying any money. Alphas being happy is benefit enough. Once more, alphas being happy mean they turn omega, bring content, and help the game. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > That’s the goal. But it’s only any good if they create content or pay-up. > > It’s hard to see how barges do either. You’re a player, not CCP. Also, they will pay up. Again. happy alphas mean they go omega. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > They can ban bots but alphas can just create a new account. > > So ccp have to restrict what alphas can do or nerf the ships they use. Well, they can ban that one too. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > The monetary cost of omega serves as a ceiling for how much a player wants to multi-box Not if each account pays for itself In plex. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > makes more money for CCP. Ok. Not if they quit. Or be unha[py. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Multi-boxing alphas don’t have such a ceiling and don’t make CCP any money. I’m saying mining alphas, not multiboxing ones. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Just more minerals we don’t need A bit more. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > more bots we don’t want More bots doesn’t matter. CCP is just gonna ban them all. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > more semi-afk players not creating content. They sometimes come out of semi afk-ness to go on fleet and stuff. A miner isn’t a miner forever. > [@Zombie Apocalypse Mining Bots - Need Help](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/zombie-apocalypse-mining-bots-need-help/241303/1): > > It seems that my 2 characters are not able to gank a fleet of Apocalypse mining bots in the System of Alakgur. There are about 8 of them 8 mining lasers, shield tanked. Takes 4 catalysts to gank and I only have 2. They don’t respond to bumping, they don’t respond to ganking attempts (Yes I failed) I am sure they are multi-alpha on one computer boxing via ?VM. 8 days old with BS and T2 fits for 20+ hours of mining. I mean 12 lasers on 1 small rock because it is the closest, really?1? The… Those are probably more likely multiboxing omegas who aren’t mining barges because they don’t wanna get ganked. Let them be. I’ll say this one more time. Mining alphas=happy alphas=more isk for alphas=they come on fleets and create content=they get omega. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Deveron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/max_deveron/32/245870_2.png) [@Max\_Deveron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Max_Deveron)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 2:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/64 "2020-11-20T02:43:22Z")
> [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Not really. But there are so many people like Max and not many mining fleets, so I wouldn’t mind having a couple more mining fleets. I would not mind having more fleets also, as in more players mining…so I dont have to. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > I’m not much of a miner and I’m not planning on training in one anytime soon. Oh, ok then your a problem for threads like this, stop arguing for ALphas getting more or balancing them until you shut up and gear up and go get some experience then come back on the topic and speak… till then you are better seen and not heard. ---
**Author:** ![Aphrodite\_Sexy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aphrodite_sexy/32/420261_2.png) [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aphrodite_Sexy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 5:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/65 "2020-11-20T05:15:54Z")
> [@Max\_Deveron](#): > > I would not mind having more fleets also, as in more players mining…so I dont have to. Really? That may seem to cut into your profitability… > [@Max\_Deveron](#): > > Oh, ok then your a problem for threads like this, stop arguing for ALphas getting more or balancing them until you shut up and gear up and go get some experience then come back on the topic and speak… till then you are better seen and not heard. 1. I’m not the OP. 2. Maybe you should make actual points. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Deveron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/max_deveron/32/245870_2.png) [@Max\_Deveron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Max_Deveron)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 5:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/66 "2020-11-20T05:24:02Z")
actually it would increase my profitability. and I made my point, cause you seem to be doing all the arguing with anybody and everybody…cept your arguments amount to nothing since you have no experience…go get some. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 6:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/67 "2020-11-20T06:10:39Z")
> [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > If they’re not then there’s a point of introducing mining barges. How? When we specifically don’t want alphas mining much, why would giving them better mining ships be a good thing? > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > but this argument is literally just “we think alphas aren’t happy enough about their mining career choices” And the reply is: so what? We don’t want many alpha miners. You may also day alphas aren’t happy about their tech 2 ships choices. Same thing. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > If they don’t have isk they can’t destroy isk very well. [Zkillboard.com](http://Zkillboard.com) suggests otherwise. Pandemic horde. Karma fleet. Brave. Faction warfare. Suicide ganking. This idea that you need much isk to pvp is a fallacy. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > They’re allowed to do exploration (it’s quite a good way to make money as an alpha too), and a little trading. **PI is blocked because it’s easy to bot and too many alphas exploiting planet resources makes it difficult.** Their exploration is greatly reduced compared to omega though. For one thing, not being able to cloak is a massive disadvantage during exploration. The part that I’ve bolded is exactly the problem mining alphas will have. So you do understand the problem, you’re just being annoying. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Not if each account pays for itself In plex. The way plex works is someone pays your sub for you in exchange for isk. CCP make more isk from a plexing account than they would if it were subbed. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Those are probably more likely multiboxing omegas who aren’t mining barges because they don’t wanna get ganked. Let them be. Everything down to the ship used, the tech 2 mining lasers and tech 1 medium drones suggests alphas. This level of denial is getting at wilful ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Aphrodite\_Sexy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aphrodite_sexy/32/420261_2.png) [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aphrodite_Sexy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 8:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/68 "2020-11-20T08:10:21Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > When we specifically don’t want alphas mining much, why would giving them better mining ships be a good thing? Ok. So our conflict is there. We DO want alphas mining more. I gave my reasons. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > You may also day alphas aren’t happy about their tech 2 ships choices. Same thing. But they are eligible to all the T1 ships except mining barges. They have reasons to expect mining barges. They have no reason to expect T2 ships. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Pandemic horde. Karma fleet. Brave. > Faction warfare. > Suicide ganking. > > This idea that you need much isk to pvp is a fallacy. Not saying you need much isk to pvp, but you do need SOME isk to pvp. At least enough isk to lose ships. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Their exploration is greatly reduced compared to omega though. For one thing, not being able to cloak is a massive disadvantage during exploration. Not really. Many wormholes are empty and if you find the right holes and keep an eye on d-scan you’d never die. Also the risk-reward is good with a 3 mil exploration frigate. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > The part that I’ve bolded is exactly the problem mining alphas will have. So you do understand the problem, you’re just being annoying. Mining is more difficult to a bot than even ratting. Ratting: launch drones, set on aggressive, warp to site, get drones back, warp to other site, repeat. Mining: warp to site, lock, set prop mod on, approach, activate mining lasers, see the rock you are mining is gone, prop mod on, approach other rock, activated mining lasers, during this time keep checking cargo hold to see whether it is full, warp off, dock, move, come back repeat. More actions=more actions that can be seen by CCP as bot-like (e.g. warping off immediately after cargo full but is afk most of the time) and banned. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > The way plex works is someone pays your sub for you in exchange for isk. > > CCP make more isk from a plexing account than they would if it were subbed. Yeah, but we’re talking about a cap. If each account plexes itself the only limit is until there’s enough accounts plexing themselves with isk to increase the price of plex above their ability to earn isk. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Everything down to the ship used, the tech 2 mining lasers and tech 1 medium drones suggests alphas. Didn’t see those parts. Mind pointing them out? Also, tech 2 mining lasers are the obvious choice compared to tech 1 ones for anybody, and maybe they were training tank and mining skills so don’t want to spend 10 days for drone skills? ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 8:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/69 "2020-11-20T08:34:22Z")
> [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > But they are eligible to all the T1 ships except mining barges. They have reasons to expect mining barges. They have no reason to expect T2 ships. Noctis. Orca. Porpoise. Freighters. And then capital ships. They have no reason to expect mining barges. Instead everyone expected them not to the moment alphas were announced. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Not saying you need much isk to pvp, but you do need SOME isk to pvp. At least enough isk to lose ships. And alphas can get SOME isk. Even mining in vents they get SOME isk. And they can make much more in abyss, ratting, incursions, level 3 missions etc. Alphas isk earning isn’t something they need to worry about. Alphas earning more isk ratting than mining also isn’t a problem. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Mining is more difficult to a bot than even ratting. Mining was the first thing in eve to be botted. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Yeah, but we’re talking about a cap. If each account plexes itself the only limit is until there’s enough accounts plexing themselves with isk to increase the price of plex above their ability to earn isk. So they stop plexing and pay CCP or drop to alpha and stop mining. Either way CCP hasn’t lost anything. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Didn’t see those parts. Mind pointing them out? There’s only one killmail linked in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Aphrodite\_Sexy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aphrodite_sexy/32/420261_2.png) [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aphrodite_Sexy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 10:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/70 "2020-11-20T10:06:51Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Noctis. Orca. Porpoise. Freighters. > > And then capital ships. > > They have no reason to expect mining barges. Instead everyone expected them not to the moment alphas were announced. Noctis actually should be alpha eligible for another conversation, orcas and porpoise have no point because alphas can’t boost, and alphas aren’t eligible to capitals anywhere else too. It’s been quite a long time since alphas were announced. Some things should change. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Even mining in vents they get SOME isk. They cannot support pvp just by mining, which is bad. Again, maybe they like mining and pvp, and have to rat to get pvp money?? > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Alphas isk earning isn’t something they need to worry about. Alphas earning more isk ratting than mining also isn’t a problem. Are you saying isk faucets, inflation and those bad things aren’t problems? > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Mining was the first thing in eve to be botted. Was aggressive mode out yet? How do you know? Maybe they were just multi boxed afk miners? > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > So they stop plexing and pay CCP or drop to alpha and stop mining. > > Either way CCP hasn’t lost anything. If they stop plexing CCP loses and we as players lose. But my point was, they aren’t capped so much. They can multibox 100 miner fleets. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > There’s only one killmail linked in the thread. Thanks, but, what about my other points? About T2 miners being the choice for multi boxers and T1 drones being because they don’t want to spend time on it? ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2020, 11:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/71 "2020-11-20T11:11:52Z")
> [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > It’s been quite a long time since alphas were announced. Some things should change. Things have changed. But we’re not going to break the game so alphas can mine a bit more. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Are you saying isk faucets, inflation and those bad things aren’t problems? No that’s not what I’m saying. But you don’t even know what you’re talking about. Inflation in eve isn’t out of control. ![9d_economy.indices](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/2/1/215aad504fda8ef2e15a10fe12896a64869f7f86.png) ![9d_economy.indices.short (1)](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/8/c/8c982ed4f7c79acbc09e2734b596041af5fbe4c9.png) What I’m saying is you don’t make the problem worse by giving alphas barges **as well**. CCP have addressed alphas earning isk via the VNI, the Gila, level 4 missions, medium drone restrictions etc. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > If they stop plexing CCP loses and we as players lose. But my point was, they aren’t capped so much. They can multibox 100 miner fleets. Then why doesn’t everyone multi-box such fleets? > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Thanks, but, what about my other points? You don’t have points. You are barely making coherent arguments and are now depending on a logical gymnasium to argue that 8 mining apocs, equipped only with alpha accessible equipment are omega accounts. You’ve had so many misconceptions about the economy, the game and player practices. I’ve given you quite a bit of new information in this thread, but you intend to power through with your argument via sheer ignorance. You are in denial. ---
**Author:** ![Aphrodite\_Sexy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aphrodite_sexy/32/420261_2.png) [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aphrodite_Sexy)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2020, 12:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/72 "2020-11-24T00:07:45Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Things have changed. > > But we’re not going to break the game so alphas can mine a bit more. We’re not breaking it. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Inflation in eve isn’t out of control. Why all those isk sinks then? Why all those nerfs to ratting? Also look at how wall the indices turned up because people started ratting? If we let alphas mine these indices would turn down and we’d have less inflation. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > What I’m saying is you don’t make the problem worse by giving alphas barges **as well**. > > CCP have addressed alphas earning isk via the VNI, the Gila, level 4 missions, medium drone restrictions etc. CCP has addressed EVERYBODY earning isk via those. They apparently and correctly think the VNI shouldn’t be better than the Ishtar and the gila is overpowered anycase. I did say that it’s easier to bot ratting than bot mining too. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Then why doesn’t everyone multi-box such fleets? Maybe their computer power? Maybe they were moral? > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > a logical gymnasium What’s that? > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > You’ve had so many misconceptions about the economy, the game and player practices. I’ve given you quite a bit of new information in this thread, but you intend to power through with your argument via sheer ignorance. You are in denial. You told me “CCP wants this”, you told me “alphas mining would break the game”. That’s it. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2020, 1:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/73 "2020-11-24T01:01:38Z")
> [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Why all those isk sinks then? Why all those nerfs to ratting? Also look at how wall the indices turned up because people started ratting? If we let alphas mine these indices would turn down and we’d have less inflation. Eve isn’t inflating. Mineral prices are because a huge chunk just got taken out of the supply. But we wanted that to happen. I’m not sure what sinks you’re referring to. CCP havent been trying stop the non-existent inflation. The ESS is about conflict drivers. It isn’t a sink as far as I’m aware. I suppose there’s the trade tax changes, but i always thought the intent behind that was hurting the big boys more than the little guy. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > CCP has addressed EVERYBODY earning isk via those. Not everyone was affected equally. The gila was more used by alphas than omegas because omegas can switch to an ishtar. The VNI is arguably better at ratting now than it was. But it’s not as afk-friendly with a nerf to it’s drone bays. The level 4 missions change and the medium drone restrictions **only** applied to alphas. Omegas were untouched by such changes. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Maybe their computer power? Maybe they were moral? So there is a cap? People CAN’T multi box 100 man fleets. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > What’s that? Your logic. It does leaps and flips. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > You told me “CCP wants this”, you told me “alphas mining would break the game”. That’s it. Yep. And I’ve argued to near exhaustion how. You think isk is a massive problem. Whilst it isn’t great right now (I’m a fan of blackout). It wasn’t nearly as bad as minerals was/is. This inflation you think is happening, isn’t. On the contrary we had significant deflation because of the over abundance of minerals. Now, this ‘balance’ obsession you have between minerals and isk isn’t the goal of recent changes. We aren’t trying to balance isk vs minerals. We are trying to balance risk vs **ALL** rewards. So there is no desire to create an influx of minerals into the economy. Let alone easily bottable ones. Not even afk friendly ones. None at all really. Not even a little bit. Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Xuxe\_Xu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuxe_xu/32/464660_2.png) [@Xuxe\_Xu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuxe_Xu)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2020, 1:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/74 "2020-11-24T01:12:12Z")
> [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Not saying you need much isk to pvp, but you do need SOME isk to pvp. At least enough isk to lose ships. um…SRP? ---
**Author:** ![Aphrodite\_Sexy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aphrodite_sexy/32/420261_2.png) [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aphrodite_Sexy)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2020, 5:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/75 "2020-11-24T05:26:06Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Mineral prices are because a huge chunk just got taken out of the supply. Also because of inflation. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > The ESS is about conflict drivers. It isn’t a sink as far as I’m aware. It is a sink as well as a conflict driver. If they wanted a pure conflict driver they could’ve just put a 100 mil isk bounty on all nullseccers. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > The gila was more used by alphas than omegas because omegas can switch to an ishtar. Omegas can’t do so well. People like ratting in Gilas because they don’t have to train for it. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > The level 4 missions change and the medium drone restrictions **only** applied to alphas. Omegas were untouched by such changes. Because they didn’t want alphas doing level 4s? Maybe they were too advanced, like alphas can’t rorqual mine for that reason. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > So there is a cap? People CAN’T multi box 100 man fleets. There is a cap but it’s not enough. Multiboxing 20 is still bad. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Your logic. > > It does leaps and flips. Ok? It looks pretty. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > You think isk is a massive problem. Whilst it isn’t great right now (I’m a fan of blackout). It wasn’t nearly as bad as minerals was/is. This inflation you think is happening, isn’t. Minerals are fine. There is “already replaced”, but that was true before rorquals (and they got nerfed). > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > On the contrary we had significant deflation because of the over abundance of minerals. Mineral prices are higher because we have less minerals, not because we have less isk. Look at the price of everything else (or stuff that’s not too related to minerals, like officer mods). > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Now, this ‘balance’ obsession you have between minerals and isk isn’t the goal of recent changes. We aren’t trying to balance isk vs minerals. We are trying to balance risk vs **ALL** rewards. Ok? We’re also trying to balance isk. We’re trying to balance many things. Also, risk vs reward is already balanced. Even the stereotypically unbalanced risk vs reward things such as nullsec mining and incursions, we have a lot of risk with filaments, and incursions have high isk/h only because of the bling people put on there and the risk of talos ganking. (or else why are you not doing it??) > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > So there is no desire to create an influx of minerals into the economy. Let alone easily bottable ones. Not even afk friendly ones. None at all really. Not even a little bit. Nope. There’s an opportunity cost to that. The influx of minerals into the economy is low compared to how many happier alphas there would be. > [@Xuxe\_Xu](#): > > um…SRP? True. But most big corps that offer SRP don’t have the fun kind of PVP with high amounts of risk. Also SRP means you wouldn’t be risking your own isk when PVPing, making it less fun (risk is what makes PVP fun, the adrenaline, also besting the other person UNDER ODDS and not blobbing the other to death). ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2020, 6:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/76 "2020-11-24T06:24:45Z")
> [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Also because of inflation EVE does not have significant evidence of inflation currently visible. If you want to claim this isn’t true and we do have a real inflation driver please provide a non investor and non supply/demand driven proof. Also please explain how the ESS is a sink. In short, you don’t understand what you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2020, 6:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/77 "2020-11-24T06:31:27Z")
> [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Also because of inflation. I think this is the greatest example of the dunning krugor effect i have ever encountered. It would be easier to explain it to you if you were a child. But because you think you understand something you don’t understand, it actually makes it harder to explain it to you. Do you understand the difference between inflation and the causes of inflation? > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > It is a sink as well as a conflict driver What is the sink part? > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Because they didn’t want alphas doing level 4s? Maybe they were too advanced, like alphas can’t rorqual mine for that reason. No. It was because they were being botted by alphas. > **[Security Update - Q1 2019 | EVE Online](https://www.eveonline.com/news/view/security-update-q1-2019)** > > Check out this devblog for the latest information on the fight against botting and RMT, as well as some upcoming changes to alpha account entitlements when mission running. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Multiboxing 20 is still bad. What is the difference between multi-boxing 20 and 20 separate players? > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Minerals are fine. So why do you think we are doing the resource rebalance and CCP are mostly focused on nerfing mineral supply? > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Mineral prices are higher because we have less minerals, not because we have less isk. Look at the price of everything else (or stuff that’s not too related to minerals, like officer mods). Yes exactly. Not inflation. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Also, risk vs reward is already balanced. Not according to CCP. Read this dev blog. > **[The EVE Online Ecosystem Outlook | EVE Online](https://www.eveonline.com/news/view/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook)** > > The state of EVE’s ecosystem and plans for the future. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > There’s an opportunity cost to that. The influx of minerals into the economy is low compared to how many happier alphas there would be. Compared to how many non-paying accounts there would be…? ---
**Author:** ![Aphrodite\_Sexy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aphrodite_sexy/32/420261_2.png) [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aphrodite_Sexy)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 11:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/78 "2020-11-26T11:18:45Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Also please explain how the ESS is a sink. 1. Disincentivises ratting which decreases isk income (isn’t exactly a sink but still…) 2. Part of the ESS money disappears after getting stolen. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > EVE does not have significant evidence of inflation currently visible. If you want to claim this isn’t true and we do have a real inflation driver please provide a non investor and non supply/demand driven proof. Eve doesn’t have significant inflation because we have many things in place to stop inflation. I have no idea what those things are but there must be a reason why other games have a lot of inflation and eve doesn’t. But one thing is clear, as they limit the isk income or create isk outflow, players don’t like losing money so without them it’s better. Players like being given the choice, and that’s what you’re giving them by giving them mining barges, and they will stop choosing to rat. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Do you understand the difference between inflation and the causes of inflation? Um… can you rephrase your question? > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > What is the sink part? Look above. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > No. It was because they were being botted by alphas. Ok. I guess. Well, mining barges aren’t that far on the spectrum of mining ships compared to level 4 missions… Like I’m not advocating for alpha rorqual access or something… > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > What is the difference between multi-boxing 20 and 20 separate players? Diminishing returns. It’s 1 person more happy vs 20 people happy. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > So why do you think we are doing the resource rebalance and CCP are mostly focused on nerfing mineral supply? They’re done. That’s why minerals are fine. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Yes exactly. Not inflation. Ok. Please just ignore references to inflation and I’ll replace that with: Alphas can rat or mine. They rat more because ratting gives them more income. Ratting causes inflation. We don’t see the inflation because CCP are taking other measures to reduce it. I don’t know what they are but they are taking isk from people which people don’t like. If alphas could mine there would be less isk created by them and thus we can have less sales tax and a more efficient market or something. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Not according to CCP. > > Read this dev blog. Not entirely balanced, but it’s balanced all right. CCP just want more balance. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Compared to how many non-paying accounts there would be…? People pay because they want more, not because they don’t have anything they want. They quit if they don’t have anything they want. There’s this balance. The same people who would pay for mining barges now are the people who would pay for exhumers when alphas could drive mining barges. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 1:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/79 "2020-11-26T13:45:15Z")
> [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Part of the ESS money disappears after getting stolen. If the money just goes to someone else and isn’t destroyed that still isn’t a sink. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > But one thing is clear, as they limit the isk income or create isk outflow, players don’t like losing money so without them it’s better. Seems like your attitude is to give players whatever they want. However, that’s the approach that put the economy in the toilet in the first place. This is how other games have run away inflation. In other games it doesn’t matter so much because their economy is a joke in the first place. However it is very important in eve. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Um… can you rephrase your question? There are driving forces behind inflation and then there is inflation which is the result. I’m getting the impression you are mixing the two. Mineral prices have inflated in the past few months from reduced supply. Not inflation. They were infact deflating hard before the resource scarcity. General inflation, the inflation you’re talking about, still isn’t happening since everything outside of minerals is still relatively low priced to three years ago. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Diminishing returns. It’s 1 person more happy vs 20 people happy. You can’t guarantee that stopping multi-boxers will be replaced by the same amount of players as extra accounts were lost. More likely CCP will be losing 19 accounts to keep one person happy. So of course they’re in no rush nerf multi-boxing. > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > Not entirely balanced, but it’s balanced all right. CCP just want more balance. ![riiiiiiight](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/7/6/76d112b49f890b25129768d3818104d696e26f24.jpeg) > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > People pay because they want more, not because they don’t have anything they want. If they have what they want, how are they supposed to want more? > [@Aphrodite\_Sexy](#): > > The same people who would pay for mining barges now are the people who would pay for exhumers when alphas could drive mining barges. Exactly. So no extra money comes from giving barges to alphas. Meanwhile there are the players that play for free (including bots) now producing 3x more minerals. Its lose-lose. * * * You’re too worried about isk inflation and not enough about mineral supply. Isk is relatively easier to manage. If CCP want to nerf isk income they can directly manage both faucets and sinks (like bringing back clone upgrades as an example). With minerals however it’s not as straight forward. CCP can directly manage the supply of minerals but rely on destruction to remove materials from the game. ---
**Author:** ![Mkikaden\_Tiragen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mkikaden_tiragen/32/243913_2.png) [@Mkikaden\_Tiragen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mkikaden_Tiragen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 3:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035/80 "2020-11-26T15:52:05Z")
Your understanding of Faucets and Sinks seems to be fundamentally flawed. Faucets and Sinks refer to _net asset volumes across all player accounts_, not just the wallet/asset book of a single player. Faucet: an activity that creates entirely new resources in response to player effort. Examples: - Ore/gas/ice produced via mining - Loot drops/salvage from _PvE_ combat activity - ISK and LP rewards from missions/bounties - Research agent LP - Planetary Industry Sink: an activity that entirely removes resources from the game in response to player effort. Examples: - Industry (research and production) and market fees - Reprocessing fees and % of material loss - Player ship destruction - NPC corp taxes These are not exhaustive lists - I may have overlooked some items. Some activities can be a Faucet for one asset class and a Sink for another (like NPC sell orders, which deplete ISK but generate materials), but everything above has a pure generation or loss mechanic where the net asset state ends lower (Sink) or higher (Faucet) for the _entire game_ as a result of the activity. ESS mechanics do not involve any ISK Sinks - at the most, they may be a ship or ammo Sink in the event there is PvP combat and player ship loss, but having ISK stolen from the ESS is still a _net increase_ in ISK available in the game. Even if an ESS were destroyed and the ‘held’ ISK not paid out, it is not an ISK Sink because that ISK was never in circulation in the first place. It’s simply a reduction in the Faucet if that occurs. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-argument-for-mining-barges-on-alpha-characters/279035.md?page=5)