# The Completion of the Reclaiming **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [September 3, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299 "2018-09-03T20:23:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/243 "2018-10-05T23:30:33Z")
Then he needs to bring sensible ones, instead of the old chestnuts that have been thoroughly and repeatedly refuted and rebuked, by pretty much everyone including your own damn loyalists. When he’s either wildly intellectually dishonest, or possibly concussed, he primarily embarrasses himself and the other loyalists. It’s so pitiful to see even PIE now trying so very hard to pretend they and the Empire are something else than it is. Do not even you lot have the spine needed to stand tall and be honest anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 11:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/244 "2018-10-05T23:32:23Z")
The only thing pitiful here is you. The foam from your rabid mouth is getting on the furniture, dog. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 11:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/245 "2018-10-05T23:32:37Z")
I begin to see why no one reasonable bothers to engage with you, Mizhara. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 12:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/246 "2018-10-06T00:13:20Z")
> [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > perhaps your words will have more weight upon the ignorant. Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 12:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/247 "2018-10-06T00:31:46Z")
As sour as it might be, she is more right about some things than people give her credit for. Especially in the matter of illegal slavers, and the likelihood of there being official (if denied) involvement. We’ve seen too much to pretend otherwise, and it’s disingenuous to dismiss that. Especially with how typical it is to have cases of abuse ignored or rebuked when we have brought them up to proper authorities. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 12:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/248 "2018-10-06T00:36:46Z")
I have seen no evidence that any of the abuses described have official sanction. I will agree that the laws are not sufficiently enforced against concord licensed capsuleers, though. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 12:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/249 "2018-10-06T00:49:32Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > I have seen no evidence that any of the abuses described have official sanction. They frequently carry Imperial identification. Of course, that could be false flag work trying to escalate tensions between the Amarr and Minmatar and keep attention off of the real parties, or they could be operating without sanction, but sometimes the simplest answer is the right one. Especially when considering the number of disconcerting actions we have seen from certain members of our government over the years. Things add up, my lord. We mustn’t let ourselves be blinded to them in our patriotic defense of our home. Of course, the same thing would be said of Minmatar raids in our space. But what the Minmatar do is no defense for our own indiscretions. We should be better than that. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 12:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/250 "2018-10-06T00:59:38Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > I have seen no evidence that any of the abuses described have official sanction. Want me to go gather you some fuckin’ tags there, shitpail? Your denial rings hollow, and you’re not that fuckin’ stupid nor naive. How pathetic that you can’t even bloody acknowledge the truth you _know_ is right there before you. Do you truly have so little integrity? Do you truly have so little honesty within you? The simple fact is this: With _this_ much smoke, there’s a fire somewhere. With _that_ many raids, with that many slaver sites, with that many “rogues”, they either have official sanction or your Empire’s navy (and the State’s at that) seems to be _primarily_ composed of “rogue admirals” and their forces. Not even I will accuse the Empire of _that_ level of incompetence. They’re sanctioned, and you know it full well. They just can’t be _publicly_ sanctioned, or your leaders using the treaties you’re beholden to as toilet paper would become more trouble than it is worth. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 1:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/251 "2018-10-06T01:35:54Z")
All tags demonstrate is that some criminals wear uniforms. The uniform doesn’t make their illegal actions sanctioned. If anything, it lowers the probability that they are sanctioned at higher levels because if we wanted to have a deniable illegal slaving operation our special ops forces are certainly smart enough to do a better job of keeping it deniable. We also know for a fact that there are major Sanist infiltration attempts ongoing constantly. Karsoth demonstrates that they have a longer reach than I would have imagined a couple decades ago. But Karsoth was an illegal takeover attempt, no matter how highly ranked he was. The scriptures talk of the need to be on guard against the enemy within for a reason. It is in Sanist interests to destabilize the relationship between Amarr and other states, so that is where I would look for the cause of such raids. You are also acting as if I am blind to corruption, which is both unwarranted and untrue. The simple fact is that the Empire is under attack from all sides and things are slipping through the cracks. Amarr has been under siege for much of the last decade. First, Blood Raiders and Matari Terrorists, then Karsoth, then the Elder Attack, then the Sansha, then the Drifters. Not to mention the constant depredations of the insanity that is free Capsuleers. Illegal slavers are definitely a problem, but one that is rather low on the list compared to the other problems. What this means is that if the goal is to stop the expansion of slavery, continuing the attack on Amarr, as many of the warmongers in this thread suggest, will only make things worse by forcing the authorities to concentrate on issues that are higher priority. With the amount of work on the MIOs plate right now, it’s hardly a wonder that they are letting important things drop. If you have to choose between prosecuting an illegal slaver and prosecuting an illegal slaver who is also a blood raider, you choose the latter. The way you fix that is to help them get their job done. Rather than attacking Amarr, help kill the Blood Raiders and Sansha. We certainly are not going to condemn you for destroying their illegal slaving operations. If you find a slaving operation outside of Amarr space, you should certainly destroy it without mercy. And if you help take the pressure off the MIO, they will have time to go after the less important enemies that hide within our own ranks. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 1:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/252 "2018-10-06T01:37:52Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > You are also acting as if I am blind to corruption, which is both unwarranted and untrue. I didn’t mean to imply such, my lord. It was a general statement that we must always be vigilant. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 1:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/253 "2018-10-06T01:49:52Z")
So you really are going to claim that _all of those ships and military personnel_ are ‘illegal’, are you? You’re going that route? Your authorities are so staggeringly incompetent that they’re recruiting entire fleets worth of ‘rogues’ and ‘illegal slavers’, who even manage to get the help of State forces in their massive slaver raids? You are so poorly governed that _many many thousands_ of “illegal” slaver sites are all over Empire space and in the border zones? You are seriously going to pretend this is something that isn’t approved of by the Merchant Empress of Slave Trade, or the sociopath that condoned murdering children for having been freed? What a pity. I expected at least a _hint_ of integrity and strength from you. Is the slaver harpy the only one among you with even the slightest spine left? ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/254 "2018-10-06T01:57:31Z")
Now you are dragging the State into it? I find all of your numbers to be suspect. Illegal slavers, sure, we know that is an issue. Many many thousands of sites? That seems exaggerated. Massive slave raids in which Amarr and Caldari cooperate to attack the Republic? Wouldn’t that be making the news? And I believe I just stated that we have problems with Blood Raider infiltration right now, so yes, our government is under rather extreme stress. It is a test of our faith and willingness to persevere. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/255 "2018-10-06T02:05:03Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > I find all of your numbers to be suspect. Illegal slavers, sure, we know that is an issue. Many many thousands of sites? That seems exaggerated. There were a lot, throughout Imperial space. They weren’t particularly _big_ sites, most of them a small asteroid mining base, but there were a lot of them. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/256 "2018-10-06T02:09:49Z")
I’m certainly not saying that that illegal slaving cabal was tiny, it made the news for a reason, but it has also been dealt with rather harshly at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/257 "2018-10-06T02:19:07Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > Now you are dragging the State into it? Why shouldn’t I? [(Actually) Interesting Ideas for Ending the Amarr-Minmatar Conflict - #572 by Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/actually-interesting-ideas-for-ending-the-amarr-minmatar-conflict/42263/572) should contain enough for now, and if you want I can quite likely get more within a day. State and Imperial. > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > Massive slave raids in which Amarr and Caldari cooperate to attack the Republic? Wouldn’t that be making the news? If anyone but you actually considered it ‘news’, I’m sure. The rest of us just know it happens, even if you - the lying sack of crap - try so very hard to pretend it doesn’t. > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > And I believe I just stated that we have problems with Blood Raider infiltration right now, so yes, our government is under rather extreme stress. It is a test of our faith and willingness to persevere. You can trot out your excuses as much as you want. You know perfectly well your government has no quarrel at all with those running “unsanctioned” slave raids. Half your damn economy rides on it. > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > but it has also been dealt with rather harshly at this point. By _us_. Your Empire did nothing but complain and whine about us capsuleers doing what _you didn’t want done._ ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/258 "2018-10-06T02:28:41Z")
I’m not sure which is more pathetic, the constant stream of crude insults or the clear need for Amarr loyalists to all be incoherent villains straight out of bad Federation soap operas. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/259 "2018-10-06T02:52:25Z")
Oh look at that, provide evidence of your nonsense and you withdraw into sulking and whining. You know why I insult you? Because you _aren’t_ coherent. Because unlike some other people I actually respect, you _are_ a villain and I’d rather you weren’t. If you were just honest, admitting to what your Empire does and acknowledging these issues, there wouldn’t even be anything but perfectly normal honest animosity in play. … but you drag your own side down. You shame and embarrass your Empire and your corporation, by blathering blatant lies and trying desperately to twist reality into something you know very well it isn’t. That is why I have nothing but insults and scorn for you. I have no need for incoherent spineless scum like you. Now, an honest opponent that stands strong and tall for their chosen cause, _without_ pretending desperately that its flaws does not exist… _that_ is someone I can respect, even if they are horrifying. You know, it must be pretty dire when you can’t just acknowledge these things, and focus on the _good_ in the Empire. Instead, no mention of the good, but desperate attempts to pretend the evils don’t exist. … it’s sad, in the end. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 3:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/260 "2018-10-06T03:55:38Z")
I haven’t lied at any point in this discourse. It would serve no purpose. You, on the other hand, seem incapable of not exaggerating your statements about Amarr. Half of our economy relies on illegal slave raids? What an absurdity. You then expect people to just take your word on the rest of your beliefs? Why should people take your word and the imagery that you provide as fact without question? Your acquiring of tags does not prove slave raids were happening, it just proves that you are able to find and kill people bearing the paraphernalia of Amarr and Caldari soldiers. Your overview imagery does not pass the smell test, either. That would be a major operation with thousands of soldiers involved. The discovery of an illegal slave operation primarily consisting of small asteroid bases made the news, no? So why would the series of major cooperative military expeditions that you describe, which would involve tens of thousands of soldiers from two nations, not make the news? It would represent a significantly larger problem than the illegal slave operation which was reported upon. I am unsure whether you are totally fabricating your evidence to justify your warmongering or if you are being duped. Either way, your evidence is not trustworthy. The only point in your favor is the fact that Samira seems to agree with you to some extent about the scope of the problem. If you are being duped I can understand your frustration that your evidence is not convincing to others. But it is telling to me that you also accused me of lying on the earlier theological point about the nature of divine commandments. The point I was making there was not a difficult one, and you easily could have engaged with it instead of insisting that your caricatured and simplistic understanding of the Amarr relationship with the Word of God is the only possible one and that anyone who said differently was just lying. The entire discussion suggests to me that you are completely incapable of accepting that others might legitimately view the world in a way that you do not. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 4:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/261 "2018-10-06T04:07:03Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > Half of our economy relies on illegal slave raids? On slavery, _fed_ by illegal slave raids. You know as well as I do that the slave population is not sufficiently fed by “legitimate” captures. Which you are well aware of but choose to be a spineless cur about, and want so very hard to pretend isn’t a thing. > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > Why should people take your word and the imagery that you provide as fact without question? Your acquiring of tags does not prove slave raids were happening, it just proves that you are able to find and kill people bearing the paraphernalia of Amarr and Caldari soldiers. Your overview imagery does not pass the smell test, either. That would be a major operation with thousands of soldiers involved. A great deal more than that, yes. That fleet was fed, supplied, fueled, and otherwise supported by a _lot_ of people just to remain combat ready. There is, to put it very simply, no conceivable way to _hide_ that kind of fleet movement and action from your authorities. Of course, now you want to try and make the claim the fleet didn’t even _exist_, is it? > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > The discovery of an illegal slave operation primarily consisting of small asteroid bases made the news, no? So why would the series of major cooperative military expeditions that you describe, which would involve tens of thousands of soldiers from two nations, not make the news? It would represent a significantly larger problem than the illegal slave operation which was reported upon. The very first time capsuleers get to participate in the Liberation Day “festivities”? Yeah, of course that’d make the news. The fact that our two nations regularly send fleets into each others’ space for various horrible purposes _still isn’t news_. It’s been a fact of life in New Eden for longer than we’ve both been capsuleers. I don’t see why you feel the need to play pretend and lie about it. > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > If you are being duped I can understand your frustration that your evidence is not convincing to others. But it is telling to me that you also accused me of lying on the earlier theological point about the nature of divine commandments. The point I was making there was not a difficult one, and you easily could have engaged with it instead of insisting that your caricatured and simplistic understanding of the Amarr relationship with the Word of God is the only possible one and that anyone who said differently was just lying. The entire discussion suggests to me that you are completely incapable of accepting that others might legitimately view the world in a way that you do not. The words are clear. The Reclaiming is an irrevocable duty of the Amarr. It is their most holy duty to reclaim _all of humanity_ under the RIte. Trying to pretend that this isn’t an unchangeable core of your society is intellectually dishonest at best. The fact that you can even make that claim without severe consequences is a sign of your privileged position. If someone more… _indentured_ had said something like that, they’d be facing _severe_ consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 4:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/262 "2018-10-06T04:26:18Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > I have seen no evidence that any of the abuses described have official sanction. I can have you a collection of various tags by Monday, all collected from Imperial Navy vessels conducting slave raids in Republic space. The sheer scope of these raids makes it outright _impossible_ for this to be ‘rogue elements’ unless the admiralty above them is such rank _incompetents_ that they’ve failed to notice a _rogue fleet_ under their command larger than anything I’ve ever seen, including when I’ve attended Imperial parade formations. And I don’t mean PIE and CVA getting a dozen ships to do a conga line. You really want to tell me the Amarr Navy is staffed with such inept officers that a few thousand warships go missing on a regular basis, and nobody notices? An operation of this size needs command and control functions. It needs logistical capabilities. It needs black market contact networks. It needs maintenance. And when ships in this group blow up, they need excuses… … unless the people in charge _already know_. So which is it? Is the Admiralty slaving, or just _incompetent_? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299.md?page=12) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299.md?page=14)