# The Completion of the Reclaiming **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [September 3, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299 "2018-09-03T20:23:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 4:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/263 "2018-10-06T04:42:31Z")
I don’t believe that the fleet you described actually existed, or if it did that it was what it seemed to be to you. That is correct. Even if you were a credible source, which you are definitely not, the scenario created is implausible. Either our empires are fighting an incredibly boneheaded and obvious shadow war, or something else is going on that causes so many capsuleers to report exactly identical incursions by the empires against each other. The latter seems more plausible to me. On the scriptural issue, your disdain for me causes you to make a serious misinterpretation of my statements. You are correct that currently the Amarr duty as given by God is the reclaiming. It is one of the oldest scriptural commands. Much of Amarr Society is designed around carrying out that mission. If you say that the reclaiming is a mistake, you would get in rather a lot of trouble. If you say that God has the power to end the reclaiming, you would not. It is _not_ our “most” holy duty. The most holy duty is obedience to the will of God. Period. After that is obedience to the Emperor. The reclaiming is subordinate to those, both historically and in primacy. This is not a controversial statement in any way. The existence of multiple books of scriptures that predate the Book of Reclaiming, including the now defunct scripture outlining the Council of Apostles, is established fact. Samira is outright incorrect when she said that the reclaiming is the reason for the Amarr Empire. The Amarr Empire existed before the Reclaiming and exists to serve the will of God. The current form of the Amarr Empire, however, is heavily based on the mission given to Amarr in the Book of Reclaiming. But the will of God is primary. The scripture is the recorded word of God. God is not silent, so the world of God is regularly updated with new revelations of divine will, some of which supersede prior divine revelation as the plan of God unfolds. It seems unlikely that the Reclaiming will ever be ended save through completion, given the timeless language in the Book of Reclaiming, but it is certainly a theological possibility. It is entirely possible that the language is the way it is for reasons that are best explained by the historical context. The word of God is absolutely correct at the moment it is revealed, but when conditions change it is often updated. Basically, without being God, you cannot know the purpose of the specific language in the Book of Reclaiming. When you declare it to be irrevocable, you place limitations on God, which is a deeply problematic thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 4:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/264 "2018-10-06T04:44:46Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > Why should people take your word and the imagery that you provide as fact without question? Your acquiring of tags does not prove slave raids were happening, it just proves that you are able to find and kill people bearing the paraphernalia of Amarr and Caldari soldiers. Your overview imagery does not pass the smell test, either. That would be a major operation with thousands of soldiers involved. > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > I don’t believe that the fleet you described actually existed, or if it did that it was what it seemed to be to you. That is correct. Even if you were a credible source, which you are definitely not, the scenario created is implausible. Either our empires are fighting an incredibly boneheaded and obvious shadow war, or something else is going on that causes so many capsuleers to report exactly identical incursions by the empires against each other. The latter seems more plausible to me. Respectfully, my lord, there are enough Minmatar who have vouched for this happening over the years, and could provide additional evidence from their work for Minmatar corporations, that one can’t really say they’re all lying. Now, it might be there is something suspicious about it all, but the evidence presented is hardly outside the bounds of credibility. Maybe it’s a shadow war, maybe it’s a false flag to divert attention (though even _if_ the forces were not true Imperial and Caldari Navy, and instead groups masquerading as them, there is enough of a market to keep them in business, which still suggests wrongdoing at home), but they do surely happen. > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > The words are clear. The Reclaiming is an irrevocable duty of the Amarr. It is their most holy duty to reclaim _all of humanity_ under the RIte. Trying to pretend that this isn’t an unchangeable core of your society is intellectually dishonest at best. The fact that you can even make that claim without severe consequences is a sign of your privileged position. If someone more… _indentured_ had said something like that, they’d be facing _severe_ consequences. Well, his point that God could give orders to the contrary stands. Just the _likelihood_ of that is so low as to be essentially a non-factor. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 5:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/265 "2018-10-06T05:06:52Z")
Yeah, you’ll have to forgive me if I don’t take the “God is omnipotent and thus can technically countermand their own commandments” nonsense seriously as an argument. Gravity on all planets _could_ fail as well, out of nowhere. Not exactly something we reckon with or use in argumentation. Your argument has now had its goalposts MJD’d quite far, going from the implication that of course the Reclaiming can be ignored as a reason to consider the Empire a threat. _We can change!_ Then to equating this _clear, timeless and unambiguous commandment_ to the Acolyte council nonsense, and now suddenly to “well _technically_ it’s not _entirely_ in the realm of impossibility that the Reclaiming could somehow sort of maybe not entirely finish the way it’s stated.”. Quite the leap from: > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > if you believe that the reclaiming is the core of Amarr Faith, you are quite mistaken. Aaaand you want me to think this isn’t intellectual dishonesty from you? As far as sources go, so far I’m a damn sight more credible than you are. On _both_ sides of this fence. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 5:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/266 "2018-10-06T05:11:22Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > Samira is outright incorrect when she said that the reclaiming is the reason for the Amarr Empire. The Amarr Empire existed before the Reclaiming and exists to serve the will of God. The current form of the Amarr Empire, however, is heavily based on the mission given to Amarr in the Book of Reclaiming. The Amarr Empire was founded to cultivate the spirit of mankind. Book I. The Reclaiming is not explicitly named and defined until the Book of Reclaiming, but it is the purpose for which Amarr was created. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 5:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/267 "2018-10-06T05:15:40Z")
Cultivation of the spirit of humankind is not inherently the same thing as conquering all of humankind. The Reclaiming is a tool used for higher purpose, not the purpose in and of itself. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 5:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/268 "2018-10-06T05:31:23Z")
To do so, the enemies of without had to be defeated, and the enemies within controlled. Bringing all creation, dispersed and distant from God’s Light, into wholesome unity with Him, in flesh and spirit. This is the Reclaiming. As we seek to Reclaim those who have fallen, we also seek to Reclaim our own spirits, defeating our inner demons and bringing ourselves closer to God. War, slavery, diplomacy, proselytization, hardships, _these_ are tools, but the Reclaiming is the purpose, the Reclaiming is the cultivation, because to Reclaim is to bring closer to God. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 5:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/269 "2018-10-06T05:38:04Z")
You seem to prioritize an important branch of scripture over the rest. That is dangerous. The final form of the cultivation of humanity has certainly not been revealed. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 5:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/270 "2018-10-06T05:39:44Z")
The means and several of the prerequisites have been made very clear, and she hit those right on the money. It should be disturbing that a Minmatar is so much better versed in the Scriptures, and more accepting of what they say, than you are. ---
**Author:** ![Maria\_Daphiti](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/maria_daphiti/32/322573_2.png) [@Maria\_Daphiti](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Maria_Daphiti)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 5:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/271 "2018-10-06T05:41:15Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > a Minmatar is so much better worsed in the Scriptures, I’ll agree with that statement! I’d expect them to be so much worse! P.S. See Arrendis, others can be pedantic too! ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 5:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/272 "2018-10-06T05:45:11Z")
Not to be unforgivably pedantic[1] but… isn’t the Reclaiming itself ‘the cultivation of humanity’ in _all_ its forms? ie: slavery, war, diplomacy, long talks while _totally_ baked on really smooth weed, persuasion by living as examples of virtue, doesn’t **all** of it count as ‘the Reclaiming’? It kinda seems like you’re arguing that only Reclaiming by the Sword counts, and even Mitty’d dispute that… and really, I’m pretty sure ‘by the sword’ is pretty much her favorite way to do… _everything_. … which makes me really wonder about how she nursed her children, now that I think of it. Yikes. * * * 1. Note the qualifier there! Unforgivably! I’m not claiming this isn’t pedantic! P.S.: I never said anyone else couldn’t! ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 5:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/273 "2018-10-06T05:46:30Z")
The scripture is huge and complicated and often contradictory, Mizhara, anyone claiming to know it all who isn’t a very old theologian is committing a grave error. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 5:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/274 "2018-10-06T05:48:03Z")
Gosh, who knew? I mean, besides everyone. Doesn’t change that your grasp on it seems feeble compared to certain other people. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 5:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/275 "2018-10-06T05:50:26Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > anyone claiming to know it all who isn’t a very old theologian is committing a grave error. In this age of injectable skillbooks, I’m not really sure that’s a valid argument. I mean, theoretically, someone _could_ get the combined learning of thousands of theologians distilled down into a skill book with a time multiplier on the order of say, Amarr Titan… I don’t know of anyone who _has_, but you know, the argument of ‘that cannot be possible’ is kinda weak coming from a guy who based part of his own argument on the idea that God’s omnipotent enough to reverse his own infallible decisions. After all, it’s entirely possible within your framework that God could grant Divine Inspiration and impart full comprehension of all of the Scriptures on someone, no? * * * Ok, this one might be getting a little more pedantic than intended, but it amused me. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 6:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/276 "2018-10-06T06:00:25Z")
Arrendis: The Reclaiming is the mission of bringing everything under Amarr control. It does not cover the control of the enemies within, for example. This is getting far afield, though. The primary point is that old scripture is regularly contradicted by new revelation and nothing except eternal obedience to God is truly unmutable. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 6:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/277 "2018-10-06T06:01:37Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > You seem to prioritize an important branch of scripture over the rest. That is dangerous. > > The final form of the cultivation of humanity has certainly not been revealed. The cultivation of the spirit of mankind is achieved through defeating the enemies of the outside and controlling the enemies within. The purpose of the Reclaiming is to defeat the enemies of the outside (the apostate peoples and their rejection of God) and control the enemies within (errant belief, sin, and disorder, imperfections and weaknesses in spirit, as found in slaves and the conquered, criminals, the weaker of faith, the corrupt and heretic, and the lip servers). ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 6:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/278 "2018-10-06T06:03:44Z")
> [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > and the lip servers A _lot_ of AmarrBloc might want to take special note of that one. I can count on one hand the amount of Marys that can thread through _that_ needle eye. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 6:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/279 "2018-10-06T06:09:10Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > Arrendis: The Reclaiming is the mission of bringing everything under Amarr control. It does not cover the control of the enemies within, for example. That would seem to directly contradict statements often cited about Reclaiming oneself… and that the Reclaiming is, after all, Reclaiming _to God_. After all, the Amarr make no claim that all of humanity once lived in harmony under _the Amarr_. In fact, they claim most of humanity persecuted them and drove them off into exile, right? So if they didn’t have dominance originally, how could they _reclaim_ that for themselves? _As Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea;_ _As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf;_ _ **Yet all under Heaven serve Me** ;_ _So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens._ _\*- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming, something:something-something:something_ I mean, **that** right there, seems to be the critical thing, right? It’s not reclaiming humanity _for Amarr_ at all. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 6:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/280 "2018-10-06T06:20:19Z")
All this quoting of the same handful of famous scripture quotes as if they are more important than the other million or so books is kind of fascinating. It’s like you cannot help but imagine Amarr as immutable, so you fixate on the few famous bits you think that you understand. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 6:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/281 "2018-10-06T06:22:05Z")
So let’s have the quotes that say otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 6:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/282 "2018-10-06T06:22:12Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > In this age of injectable skillbooks, I’m not really sure that’s a valid argument. I mean, theoretically, someone _could_ get the combined learning of thousands of theologians distilled down into a skill book with a time multiplier on the order of say, Amarr Titan… “The Scriptures” do not simply contain theological arguments. And I am not just meaning things like the Technical Scriptures, which embody the entire scientific and technical output of the entire Amarr Empire. You see, The Scriptures, contain not only the theological arguments made by various persons throughout history, but also the historical context in which those persons made those arguments. The Book of the Prophet Anoyia, for example, contains the primary statements made by Prophet Anoyia, such that reading those statements is enough for the lay person. However, there are accompanying volumes to the Book of the Prophet Anoyia. Historical volumes, biographical volumes, that put the Prophet’s statements into their proper context, such that full understanding of the Prophet’s statements is achievable. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299.md?page=13) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299.md?page=15)