# The Completion of the Reclaiming **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [September 3, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299 "2018-09-03T20:23:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 2:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/344 "2018-10-07T02:29:56Z")
> [@Hevarkin\_Kezak-Akarin](#): > > Sometimes the price of peace lies in having to accept less than you might have initially desired. You know you’re just highlighting the dangers of trying to maintain ‘peace’ with an Empire of abusers, rapists, and murderers, right? That when you say things like this about the practice of systemic cruelty, you only reinforce the idea that the only way to oppose evil is to leave nothing of the Empire but bloody corpses? > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > I cited plenty of sources. You have cited not one single source to actually support your claims. You have named possible sources for alternative descriptors, but this is akin to saying that because one book describes a color as ‘crimson’, that color is not red. You have claimed that controlling the enemies within is not within the scope of Reclaiming humanity. You have not provided one single source, not even a single _verse of Scripture_ to support this. And now you are claiming that you have. Perhaps this is what passes for demonstrating proof of something within the Empire, but where I’m from, in the other nations where I’ve lived, and in the areas I live now, we call that ‘lying’. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 2:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/345 "2018-10-07T02:30:51Z")
The case of Jamyl is a clear demonstration of the flaw in that logic. The easiest way for the Empire to be reunified in a breakdown is for someone to be able to claim that they are a genuine war hero to the Amarr people. Jamyl skipped the normal succession process entirely because she stopped the Elder Invasion cold. Without that moment of heroism, she would not have been qualified as Empress at all. A savvy successor king would know that the fastest and cleanest way to bring the other successor kings under their banner would be to do something similar. If you think in Gallente political theory terms, you will never understand Amarr. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 2:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/346 "2018-10-07T02:33:17Z")
> [@Isha\_Vuld](#): > > > [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > > > We must serve God, not the system. If the system fails at properly serving God, then the system must be Reclaimed. > > And who decides if the system fails? Only God can decide that. And we will not know God’s true judgment, whether we have served him truly or falsely, until we meet Him in what comes after. Until then, we can only do what we feel to be right, and pray in God to guide our spirits to just action. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/347 "2018-10-07T02:35:39Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > The case of Jamyl is a clear demonstration of the flaw in that logic. The easiest way for the Empire to be reunified in a breakdown is for someone to be able to claim that they are a genuine war hero to the Amarr people. > > Jamyl skipped the normal succession process entirely because she stopped the Elder Invasion cold. Without that moment of heroism, she would not have been qualified as Empress at all. A savvy successor king would know that the fastest and cleanest way to bring the other successor kings under their banner would be to do something similar. The case of Jamyl Sarum, however, presumes a current, active _external threat_. There was no break-up of the Empire. The Houses were not declaring independence from one another. It was not “the Empire disintegrat[ing] into several fragments”. It was only the Empire being temporarily paralyzed by internal trouble. The greater cohesion of the Empire had not broken down _at all_. That is a far cry from the scenario you proposed. ---
**Author:** ![Isha\_Vuld](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/isha_vuld/32/470113_2.png) [@Isha\_Vuld](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Isha_Vuld)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 2:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/348 "2018-10-07T02:39:19Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > The case of Jamyl is a clear demonstration of the flaw in that logic. It is a risk, but I feel it is a risk more then worth taking. I also do not expect a second Jamyl Sarum to rise up in that case. I legitimately expect the various nation-states to be far too busy sorting out their affairs to even consider a retaliatory strike. None of us have ever seen destruction on the scale we are discussing now, but surely you can agree that it would be extremely messy, and extremely chaotic? I suppose I do trust the average Amarr ruler enough to believe they will put their people’s best interests before their desire for vengeance. Naturally, they will be cross at us by the time they do stabilize. But by then we’l have been able to take advantage of the chaos to remove their slaves. So. Worth it? But even **IF** a Jamyl like figure rises up. It would still be worth it. > [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > Until then, we can only do what we feel to be right, and pray in God to guide our spirits to just action. That sounds quite risky indeed, relying only on one’s own judgement in lieu of that of ancient institutions. And with that commentary, I bid thee all a good night! ---
**Author:** ![Hevarkin\_Kezak-Akarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hevarkin_kezak-akarin/32/99823_2.png) [@Hevarkin\_Kezak-Akarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hevarkin_Kezak-Akarin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 2:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/349 "2018-10-07T02:39:26Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > You know you’re just highlighting the dangers of trying to maintain ‘peace’ with an Empire of abusers, rapists, and murderers, right? That when you say things like this about the practice of systemic cruelty, you only reinforce the idea that the only way to oppose evil is to leave nothing of the Empire but bloody corpses? You could have just said you oppose institutional slavery as it exists in the Empire with ideological and philosophical (moral) vehemence and would not accept a pragmatic solution on that basis. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 2:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/350 "2018-10-07T02:41:50Z")
> [@Hevarkin\_Kezak-Akarin](#): > > You could have just said you oppose institutional slavery as it exists in the Empire with ideological and philosophical (moral) vehemence and would not accept a pragmatic solution on that basis. You and I appear to disagree on what constitutes ‘a pragmatic solution’. Accepting slavers’ right to take slaves is not pragmatic. It is self-defeating and wasteful, as it only ensures the problem will need to be dealt with more fully at a later date, after the slavers have had time to retrench. Ending the slavers, on the other hand, is eminently pragmatic. The dead take no slaves. ---
**Author:** ![Hevarkin\_Kezak-Akarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hevarkin_kezak-akarin/32/99823_2.png) [@Hevarkin\_Kezak-Akarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hevarkin_Kezak-Akarin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 2:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/351 "2018-10-07T02:45:17Z")
> [@Deitra\_Vess](#): > > Then why are they allowed to vye for power? If they seem to threaten breaking this peace due to aggression caused by their stance? Because House Sarum along with House Khanid have been the families militant since the time of the Moral Reforms and were at the vanguard of the Udorian conquests before that. House Sarum occupies the prominence in Imperial politics it does because it controls the vast majority of the Imperial military-industrial complex in addition to having the most significant ground forces, internal security fleet, and Sarumite officers occupy a swathe of the Amarr Navy staff. In short: It’s because Sarum has most of the guns of the Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 2:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/352 "2018-10-07T02:48:01Z")
> [@Isha\_Vuld](#): > > That sounds quite risky indeed, relying only on one’s own judgement in lieu of that of ancient institutions. I wish I didn’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 2:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/353 "2018-10-07T02:52:05Z")
> [@Hevarkin\_Kezak-Akarin](#): > > In short: It’s because Sarum has most of the guns of the Empire. Well, that speaks well for the strength of the ‘absolute’ power of the Throne, doesn’t it? Must suck to be afraid of your own underlings. ---
**Author:** ![Hevarkin\_Kezak-Akarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hevarkin_kezak-akarin/32/99823_2.png) [@Hevarkin\_Kezak-Akarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hevarkin_Kezak-Akarin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 2:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/354 "2018-10-07T02:54:03Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Well, that speaks well for the strength of the ‘absolute’ power of the Throne, doesn’t it? Must suck to be afraid of your own underlings. House Sarum have always been the most loyal subjects in submission to the Holy Throne of Amarr. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 2:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/355 "2018-10-07T02:58:14Z")
Then they’d have no issues with being ordered to surrender enough of their war materiel to bring them down into parity with the other Houses. As a result, their _current_ possession of ‘most of the guns of the Empire’ should have no bearing on their position, should it? ---
**Author:** ![Hevarkin\_Kezak-Akarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hevarkin_kezak-akarin/32/99823_2.png) [@Hevarkin\_Kezak-Akarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hevarkin_Kezak-Akarin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 3:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/356 "2018-10-07T03:00:05Z")
Of course not; House Sarum complied with the Heideran decree regarding space forces to the letter as an example. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 3:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/357 "2018-10-07T03:02:51Z")
> [@Hevarkin\_Kezak-Akarin](#): > > House Sarum have always been the most loyal subjects in submission to the Holy Throne of Amarr. Tell that to the Sarum fleet that tried to kill Doriam during his coronation. ---
**Author:** ![Hevarkin\_Kezak-Akarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hevarkin_kezak-akarin/32/99823_2.png) [@Hevarkin\_Kezak-Akarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hevarkin_Kezak-Akarin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 3:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/358 "2018-10-07T03:03:57Z")
No shots were actually fired during that incident so no attempt on the life of his late Imperial Majesty was made. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 3:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/359 "2018-10-07T03:04:51Z")
Sarum does not outgun the Imperial Navy. ---
**Author:** ![Hevarkin\_Kezak-Akarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hevarkin_kezak-akarin/32/99823_2.png) [@Hevarkin\_Kezak-Akarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hevarkin_Kezak-Akarin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 3:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/360 "2018-10-07T03:06:16Z")
Certainly not; especially when all House Sarum fleets are solely for the use of policing criminals and have no designs on any conduct of offensive military action which remains the sole domain of the Navy. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 3:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/361 "2018-10-07T03:06:50Z")
You should double-check reports of that incident. Sarum forces did, in fact, open fire. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 3:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/362 "2018-10-07T03:09:46Z")
As to why we have more militant families involved in the succession, the divine logic of the succession ritual is that the ritual is a divine choice of the correct emperor for the coming era. In a world where we are constantly under attack, it would be foolish for the candidates to not include those of a more bellicose nature. However, it is notable that those candidates have **not** been chosen twice now. I know you Republicans don’t find Amarr’s beholdenness to divine command to be comforting, but we have now had two succession rituals in a short time pick the pro Pax candidate. The message is pretty clear. ---
**Author:** ![Hevarkin\_Kezak-Akarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hevarkin_kezak-akarin/32/99823_2.png) [@Hevarkin\_Kezak-Akarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hevarkin_Kezak-Akarin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 3:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/363 "2018-10-07T03:12:13Z")
Ah, yes, the mistaken passions of Sulei. However the rogue actions of one Admiral should not be considered as anything more than that. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299.md?page=17) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299.md?page=19)