# The Completion of the Reclaiming **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [September 3, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299 "2018-09-03T20:23:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 3:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/364 "2018-10-07T03:13:04Z")
It is also notable that once she was made Empress, Jamyl Sarum, who was a war hero and who was not chosen by the succession ritual, also changed her position and freed slaves rather than pursuing a renewed reclaiming. Again, the message to the faithful is clear. We need to look within and make sure our house rests on a strong foundation. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 3:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/365 "2018-10-07T03:14:57Z")
Haaaah, “pro-Pax candidate”. I like that. I mean, the current Empress is of the sociopathic merchant variety with significant vested interest in staggering slave-trade, utilizing vitoxin and TCMCs at significant degrees. There’s quite a bit of love for mankind going on there… as a commodity and property. This is what you see when you think of the Pax, is it? > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > Jamyl Sarum, who was a war hero and who was not chosen by the succession ritual, also changed her position and freed slaves rather than pursuing a renewed reclaiming. Trotting out the weaponized PR stunt again, are we? She didn’t ‘free’ anyone that wasn’t already an indoctrinated zealot, Amarr in every way but blood. She unleashed, without any time for preparation, a staggering amount of zealots upon her enemies, and it bloody worked. She even got to look benevolent when she did it. Now if she’d actually freed someone who was still capable of freedom, we could talk. Still waiting for you to address the _many_ issues and refutations we’ve been serving you over the course of this thread, by the way. You keep meandering from subject to subject whenever you run out of retorts. Quite the gallop on ya. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 3:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/366 "2018-10-07T03:15:50Z")
> [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > We must serve God, not the system. If the system fails at properly serving God, then the system must be Reclaimed. This use of the concept of reclaiming, I have no problem with, by the way. In the scenario you describe the system is no longer Amarr, but pseudo-Amarr, and therefore becomes an external enemy that is not under Amarr religious law. I do not think things are as bad as this yet. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 3:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/367 "2018-10-07T03:16:49Z")
Mmmmhm. Point out your dishonesty, point out that you’re drawing a false equivalence between an Empire temporarily leaderless and one that’s ‘disintegrating’, and suddenly you’re just so obsessed with discussing the minutae of how many guns House Sarum has. Mustn’t _dare_ engage with the topics where you’ve left your bare arse flapping in the breeze. Still waiting for a single _actual_ citation of specific Scriptures, and not just generalizing and listing off a bunch of ‘It could be somewhere in there’ books. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 3:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/368 "2018-10-07T03:19:17Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > As to why we have more militant families involved in the succession, the divine logic of the succession ritual is that the ritual is a divine choice of the correct emperor for the coming era. In a world where we are constantly under attack, it would be foolish for the candidates to not include those of a more bellicose nature. God commands us to act, and gives us the chance to fail. Our future is not fated. God did not choose the emperors in the succession trials, their champions did through their own actions, success or failure. To claim it was ‘God’s choice’ is an excuse for the losing parties to place blame on a cause other than their own failings. Was it God’s will that we lost Vak’atioth? God’s will that the Elder Fleet was allowed to penetrate our defenses? God’s will that Karsoth came to power? Was every major victory because God willed it, and every major loss because He didn’t? The first Amarr were made God’s Chosen _because_ they proved to him that they were worth His attention. It should not be seen that our future is based on God’s whim, but on our own ability to successfully or unsuccessfully carry out His commands for us. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 3:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/369 "2018-10-07T03:29:29Z")
> [@The Completion of the Reclaiming](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/292): > > Arrendis: Among the particularly well known bits, only a few are focused primarily on Reclaiming. Book II, for example, focuses on the effects of the absence of God and on the coming of the eschaton, with nary a mention of Reclaiming. The book of Missions gives many declarations that, again, are not about the Reclaiming. There are the many declarations of the Prophets on the duties of service to the Emperor. The book of Gheinok and the Epitoth both focus on Amarr before the declaration of recl… I cited plenty, and if you are too lazy to check my citations that is not my problem, and I even included a scripture quote in that post. So your statement that I did not cite a single scripture quote is simply false. You, on the other hand, are clearly only interested in discourse as a conflict in which someone wins and someone loses. You are also fond of your traps and your willful misreadings of others arguments. You delight in setting up false tests. Discussions with you must assume that you are always engaging in bad faith. So you have joined the list alongside Mizhara of people that are not worth my time. Congratulations. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 3:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/370 "2018-10-07T03:36:30Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > So you have joined the list alongside Mizhara of people that are not worth my time. Congratulations. And another one completely fails to defend his chosen position, and retreats into sullen, sulky and whiny defeat. This went faster than usual. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 3:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/371 "2018-10-07T03:40:11Z")
Isha: You misunderstand my point about Jamyl. It is not that I would expect a second Jamyl to rise up in the face of a major Amarr defeat and fragmentation into successor states, but that each successor would know that the best way to stop the disintegration is to attempt to become a Jamyl. Most likely, this would result in a lot of Uriam-esque stupidity. Which still ends up with a lot of dead people. But what is certain is that at least some of the successor states (whichever included Sarum, and whoever got the lions share of the fleet) would be extremely bellicose towards the non-Amarr states. This is especially true if the collapse can be laid at a specific foriegn enemy’s door. Arrendis’ simple line about disintegrating states not attacking others might apply to a relatively weak disintegrating state, but it certainly does not apply to the collapse of the largest coherent empire in known human history. Imagine an Empire made up of four or five Khanid Kingdoms and you get the picture. There would be no threat from say, Tash Murkon, but the republic would be under a grave threat from whoever controlled Ammatar space or the Bleaks, and they might very well look like a weaker target than the other successor states. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/372 "2018-10-07T03:42:21Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > I cited plenty, and if you are too lazy to check my citations that is not my problem, and I even included a scripture quote in that paragraph. Focusing on the absence of God is not demonstrating that the containment of the enemy within is excluded from the Reclaiming. Giving declarations that are not about the Reclaiming does not specify what the limits of the Reclaiming _are_—in fact, that’s specifically _not_ defining the limits of the Reclaiming, because if it was, it wouldn’t be ‘not about the Reclaiming’. Books that predate the mandate of the Reclaiming cannot possibly contain its limit. To say that the containment of the enemies within is an obligation older than the mandate of the Reclaiming would be one thing. To claim that texts which do not touch upon the Reclaiming _exclude_ the containment of the enemies within from its Mandate… is something _quite_ different. The latter is what you’ve claimed. And that is what you have not provided a single Scripture to support. You’ve provided a lot of resources that talk _around_ the basic conflict with your assertion, but not one that actively supports it. > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > You, on the other hand, are clearly only interested in discourse as a conflict in which someone wins and someone loses. No, I am clearly interested in you _actually supporting your claims_, and not just coming up with a list of things that don’t contradict you, but don’t actually _support_ you, either. I’m actually _not_ fond of traps, but you know, when someone’s being evasive, sometimes, you have to break their leg to keep them from dodging. I’ve stayed extremely focused on this one matter (other than taking a moment to point out the problems with another of your statements). I even warned you ahead of time what continuing to be evasive rather than simply acknowledging that you can’t support your claim would get you. I am not the one arguing in bad faith here. Nor am I the one who has been demonstrated to be _ **lying** _. Perhaps you should consider trying honesty for once, rather than making accusations to deflect from your dishonesty and rank cowardice. And if you have a problem with being called a coward, my lord, you should consider perhaps not running away with your tail between your legs as a preferable alternative to acknowledging when you’re in over your head. I’d also like to take a moment and be just a _wee_ bit more of a pedantic, arrogant jerk by pointing out that this line: > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > So you have joined the list alongside Mizhara of people that are not worth my time. Congratulations. … means that if you do reply to me, you’ve demonstrated _yourself_ that you were lying. Can’t even blame _me_ for setting that trap for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 4:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/373 "2018-10-07T04:00:47Z")
I actually won’t argue that fact, however if this pax was intended to last wouldn’t the more bellicose have less of a chance? I don’t really know of you could even have an answer to that question but any insight would be appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 4:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/374 "2018-10-07T04:03:51Z")
With respect, that was more my doing than his. Sorry… ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 4:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/375 "2018-10-07T04:05:30Z")
I said you are not worth my time, not that I wouldn’t reply. My decision to waste my own time is my own. You are asking for a long scripture quote explaining what the reclaiming is not. Such a thing does not exist, I have never claimed it existed. As for lying, you are the one who just said that I hadn’t cited anything, when what you meant is that I hadn’t cited the specific scripture that you demanded, knowing full well that such a pedantic scripture is not present in the well known corpus of scripture. The opposite also applies, there isn’t a scriptural source that says that the reclaiming does apply to the enemies within. The closest I know of is BoR 4:45, which does specify that those who submit should be saved by grace and those who resist should be destroyed. Now, the simple scripture point that you ask for is not the sort of thing that one finds in scripture. A long definitional disclaimer? Have you ever seen anything of the sort in divine revelation from any culture? On the other hand, the simple scripture quote that would prove your point, would be specifically _anything_ that references internal reclaiming of oneself or of dissident internal populations already under Amarr authority. Given that we have rather a lot of scripture about self-discipline, surely there would be at least one quote that proves your point? I would be very interested if you could provide such a quote. The quote you referenced does not do that. That was BoR 3:19, if I recall? And the Lord spake, and said, Lo, my people, Witness, for I have made the worlds of Heaven; And these worlds I give to you, My Chosen, So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens. None shall stand higher than you save the Sefrim, Who serve Me as others shall serve you, For all things under Me serve one higher; So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens. As Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea; As Emperor rules [Holder](http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=Holders); as Holder rules Serf; Yet all under Heaven serve Me; So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens. This is pretty exclusively about the structure of legal rulership in the Amarr system. God rules Sefrim. Sefrim rule Emperor. Emperor rules Holder. Amarr rule the worlds. No mention of conversion of the populations of worlds, just rulership. There is also the question of what Amarr means here, is it True Amarr, or is it something more vague like general people of the faith. This matches the rest of the material I have seen from the book of Reclaiming. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 4:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/376 "2018-10-07T04:08:32Z")
Deitra: Do you want a long term answer to that, or a short term answer? ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 4:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/377 "2018-10-07T04:09:46Z")
Honestly either would be nice, rather not disrupt other people’s lines of questioning but I am curious I’ll admit. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 4:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/378 "2018-10-07T04:23:28Z")
In the short term: Don’t destabilize Catiz. She should have a rather long reign ahead of her, so long as she is alive, there is no threat of Sarumite ideology becoming ascendant. Barring that, remember that the Heirs are people, not avatars of house ideology. So any actions that would convince Arrach specifically that the reclaiming policy supported by much of his house is a flawed concept. I am not sure exactly what this would take, especially given the radical changes to Matari society that have occurred since the removal of Midular. His opposition to Khanid might be something that could become useful in the right circumstances. In the long term, it would involve convincing the overall body of the house that the militant reclaiming is a poor approach, and that an approach similar to the conversion of Khanid is better. You are unlikely to change their mind of the overall goal of renewed reclaiming, but you might change their mind on the methodology, which buys time for other Amarr ideologies elsewhere to come into play. If there are fewer Sarumites who believe that the first thing an Emperor should do is invade Matar, then the risk of the succession trial decreases. I do, unlike Samira, believe in the divine will guiding the succession trials, so long as they are done properly. But which specific heirs happen to be contenders is not something governed by divine rite and a place where human influence can play a major role. In a stable peacetime Amarr, the likelihood of having multiple militant minded heirs is likely to decrease. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 4:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/379 "2018-10-07T04:24:38Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > On the other hand, the simple scripture quote that would prove your point, would be specifically _anything_ that references internal reclaiming of oneself or of dissident internal populations already under Amarr authority. Given that we have rather a lot of scripture about self-discipline, surely there would be at least one quote that proves your point? I would be very interested if you could provide such a quote. Except my point is simply that you claimed there was plenty of Scripture which specifically countered the Scriptures I already quoted. So I asked you for citations. You have not provided them. I actually made no hard and fast claim of knowledge of the Scriptures. You did. As a result, I asked you to provide sourcing. Had you done so, I would have thanked you and been satisfied. It would have meant I was learning something, which, really, is one of the greatest joys any pedantic jerk can experience, as it means we have more knowledge to be a pedantic jerk about. In fact, I’d still _love_ to find out that you can provide sourcing for your claim. It would make your claim credible, and allow me to add that fact to my own arsenal when it comes time to be pedantic about this sort of thing. But you still haven’t done that. > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > There is also the question of what Amarr means here, is it True Amarr, or is it something more vague like general people of the faith. Yes, there is, and I’ve asked what you meant specifically by it, as well. I asked that after you asked me the same question, and I answered it. You, still, have _not_. > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > My decision to waste my own time is my own. It truly is, yet, as an Amarr noble, you are expected to know the value of things, and not waste your resources. Time is the most limited resource anyone has, as every second is irreplaceable. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 4:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/380 "2018-10-07T04:27:34Z")
> [@Deitra\_Vess](#): > > With respect, that was more my doing than his. Sorry… While I appreciate the gesture, Deitra, as he so _clearly_ states, responsibility for how he chooses to spend his time rests with him alone. So him ignoring the arguments he’s losing to focus on something else? All him, babe. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 4:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/381 "2018-10-07T04:30:30Z")
Ehh, what can I say? I’m probably distracting for my own well, I would say amusement but like I said before I actually really am curious on this stuff and rarely do I actually get solid answers aside from the same scripture quotes… So far this has actually been informative to me, a nice change honestly. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 4:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/382 "2018-10-07T04:32:41Z")
When you live to over 150, and can expect a few more centuries, time loses some value. I missed that you had asked my definition of Amarr. This thread is moving somewhat fast. I should note that I think some of your problems with my statements are due to misunderstandings caused by my answers being mixtures of answers to you and others. I have not purposely claimed to be a scriptural expert, I am not, though you seem to have read my words in a way that imply otherwise. On the issue of Amarr definitions: When I refer to Amarr without qualification I tend to mean the area and people that are subordinated under divine law. This does not require those populations to have already personally converted. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 4:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299/383 "2018-10-07T04:45:29Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > When you live to over 150, and can expect a few more centuries, time loses some value. Expectations are lovely, but data corruption happens. Take no moment for granted, my lord. Even we shouldn’t. > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > When I refer to Amarr without qualification I tend to mean the area and people that are subordinated under divine law. This does not require those populations to have already personally converted. That would seem problematic, then, as your definition of ‘Amarr’ includes many who would rather not be included, and whose status can change at the lobbing of a few shells. On the Scriptural issue… you claimed these Scriptures exist. I took that to mean you knew which ones they were. I assumed no other expertise or knowledge of the Scriptures on your part. Also, for the record, if you want examples of how fracturing societies, even those fracturing into _vastly_ uneven sizes, turn on one _another_ rather than an _external_ foe… Well… The Empire/Republic. Used to all be ‘The Empire’. The Federation/State used to be all ‘the Federation’. The bitterest enemies are the ones who used to be unified, because whatever caused that split was strong enough to, well, cause the split in the first place. And that’s without getting into any particular set of socio-political history and looking at things like the planetary history of Caldari Prime, the Intaki issues, or any other minutae. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299.md?page=18) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-completion-of-the-reclaiming/103299.md?page=20)