# The cost of suicide ganking is too low **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [November 17, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033 "2017-11-17T16:12:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Aergri\_Evingod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aergri_evingod/32/116437_2.png) [@Aergri\_Evingod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aergri_Evingod)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/929 "2017-11-28T11:43:36Z")
> [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > > [@yellow\_parasol](#): > > > > [Horticulture - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horticulture) > > My ignorance is actually rather embarrassing. I come partly from a family of farmers (mum’s side), however every plant I’ve ever tried to grow has shrivelled up and died. I’ve not the gift, I guess; and without the gift, the information is…unattractive. me neither not even desert plants. still this information is interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/930 "2017-11-28T11:51:51Z")
Now you are talking about horticulture. Please, people… Some levity is normal and expected, but atleast try to stay ontopic. We shouldnt have to start flagging these offtopic posts and burdening moderation. If we want more freedom on the board, we are the ones responsible for posting according to rules. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/931 "2017-11-28T11:55:36Z")
True. So is there still any case to be made regarding the costs (unspecified) of ganking (in general)? ---
**Author:** ![Ima\_Wreckyou](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ima_wreckyou/32/235531_2.png) [@Ima\_Wreckyou](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ima_Wreckyou)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/932 "2017-11-28T11:56:19Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > The cost to gankers is not material, and is foregone, as the entire participating fleet will be wiped out by CONCORD no matter what. It always puzzles me how it actually looks like you sincerely try to start a conversation and then you write stuff like this. If you don’t even account for the cost and just disregard it because of some nonsensical reason then I can only conclude that you are once again trolling and not interested in an actual discussion about the topic. ---
**Author:** ![yellow\_parasol](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yellow_parasol/32/10455_2.png) [@yellow\_parasol](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/yellow_parasol)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 12:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/933 "2017-11-28T12:10:57Z")
Does anyone ever bring up the real life cost of FIFTEEN MINUTES of forced pause after a gank in highsec? ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 12:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/934 "2017-11-28T12:16:43Z")
I was thinking the account time to isk/hr Given thats what miners seem to care most about. ---
**Author:** ![Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sasha_nemtsov/32/393707_2.png) [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sasha_Nemtsov)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 12:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/935 "2017-11-28T12:19:53Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Now you are talking about horticulture. > Please, people… > Some levity is normal and expected, but atleast try to stay ontopic. > > We shouldnt have to start flagging these offtopic posts and burdening moderation. > If we want more freedom on the board, we are the ones responsible for posting according to rules. It is true, I…wandered. However, in real life too the distinctions between conversation and discussion can get blurred. The ‘stay on topic’ rule is fine, though I’m known to ignore it at will, depending on what people say - and what they would get away with saying if I left it. All this is moot though, for my intervention was about as on-topic as you could get. Let me quickly explain: The people complaining most about the cost of suicide-ganking being too low, are like the farmers in my example. They have an innate capacity for the enjoyment of their particular activities, as I do for mine. They also have a lively dislike of the fox (hens) and the badger (cattle) (I know the link with badgers and cattle is not these days recognised), together with the attentions of various pests attracted to their arable efforts. The farmer does what he can to protect his assets, taking advantage of all the modern methods available. The fox and the pest must find new ways of grabbing the goods and making away with them. I am no farmer (horticulture). I am the fox, badger, pest. I must also invest time and energy - and even to risk my own life - in order to feed and to raise my young. I know nothing of farming, but a great deal about the procurement of food. I, too, must adapt or die. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 12:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/936 "2017-11-28T12:24:58Z")
> [@Ima\_Wreckyou](#): > > If you don’t even account for the cost and just disregard it because of some nonsensical reason You have misread/misunderstood my point. I was pointing out that whatever cost/action is taken which elicits a CONCORD reaction, is invariably lost, defacto. If its 3, 30 or 300 capsuleers. If its at a cost of 3mil, 300mil or 300bil. All of that will be wrecked/sunk by CONCORD. You cant beat CONCORD. Ever. This is just a simple fact. I brought it up, in response to your own question earlier, regarding what should be the cost of AG action vs that of gank actions. AG is not responsible for destroying the value of gank fleets, CONCORD is, and will. AG, at best, can try to keep the gank target alive long enough for CONCORD to do its job. Thus it makes sense that AG action should be cheaper, in whatever proportion, than a gank action. That is the paradigm I am talking about. TLDR: Its not AGs job to kill all gankers. That is CONCORDs job, and they WILL explode all gankers. AGs job is to keep the gank target alive long enough for CONCORD to complete its job. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 12:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/937 "2017-11-28T12:37:24Z")
If they made EvEUniesque fits and good practice guides available that would be a lot cheaper. Hmmm Good practices Standards Hmmm ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 12:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/939 "2017-11-28T12:42:03Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > If they made EvEUniesque fits and good practice guides available that would be a lot cheaper. Nobody can save some people from their own laziness/greed/ignorance. This isnt about “saving” gank targets from the above lapses, nor eliminating ganks. Its about enabling AG to operate as support to survive that, as is their content. Educating people and being pro-active in ganks, are not mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 12:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/940 "2017-11-28T12:44:23Z")
I fully support the addition of a module that makes ganking impossible if your ship is below a particular market value. Unless you were suggesting some other way of value being ascribed? ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 12:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/941 "2017-11-28T12:45:49Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > This isnt about “saving” gank targets from the above lapses, nor eliminating ganks. > > Its about enabling AG to operate as support to survive that, as is their content. I think Im having difficulty with this phrasing. Can you give me an example of an ingame action that you feel fits the description? ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 12:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/942 "2017-11-28T12:46:41Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Nobody can save some people from their own laziness/greed/ignorance. Oh and I know a man who can. Soneone almost as dreamy as Omir Surikusa ---
**Author:** ![Ralph\_King-Griffin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ralph_king-griffin/32/252855_2.png) [@Ralph\_King-Griffin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ralph_King-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 12:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/943 "2017-11-28T12:47:27Z")
you have yet to _establish_ that this is a problem, you just _said_ it is. ---
**Author:** ![Sindara\_T\_Soni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sindara_t_soni/32/242945_2.png) [@Sindara\_T\_Soni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sindara_T_Soni)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 12:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/944 "2017-11-28T12:47:52Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Thus it makes sense that AG action should be cheaper I love these kind of conclusions drawn from things that absolutely do not produce these conclusions unless you really want them to. Fascinating the way someone with an agenda self justifies that agenda by publically adding 2 and 2 together and annoucing that the result is 58. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 12:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/945 "2017-11-28T12:59:19Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > > > This isnt about “saving” gank targets from the above lapses, nor eliminating ganks. > > > > Its about enabling AG to operate as support to survive that, as is their content. > > I think Im having difficulty with this phrasing. > Can you give me an example of an ingame action that you feel fits the description? Thats what Anderson and I where trying to explore. Whether web frigates and/or logi/ECM ships may be sufficient as an escort to offset the gank calculations sufficiently to allow for either escape of the gank target, or to keep it alive for long enough for CONCORD to reduce the income dps on the target sufficiently for them to survive till CONCORD finishes off the rest. I dont know if that is plausible. But I want to believe there is some opportunity there to do so, as otherwise ganking is largely relegated to CONCORD reaction, rather than 3rd party player based intervention in the gank. I dont yet want to accept that players cannot intervene in a gank, at cheaper cost than the gankers, under the auspice of the inevitable CONCORD wrecking of the entire gank fleet (exempting the loot pickup ships/scouts). That, to me, would be accepting that HS illegal aggression is solely moderated by CONCORD, with no sufficient 3rd party opportunity for intervention (organised or not). I wont accept that, yet. There must be a way to make this work. ---
**Author:** ![yellow\_parasol](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yellow_parasol/32/10455_2.png) [@yellow\_parasol](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/yellow_parasol)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 1:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/946 "2017-11-28T13:00:44Z")
It’s fascinating to see how his boxed thinking brings up interesting conclusion which are, based on his line of thinking, absolutely logically correct. What I’m talking about is his idea that it’s CONCORD’s job to kill the gankers, as if it was somehow established that the people SHOULD NOT (need to?) do so. There is no actual connection between “someone’s job” and “someone’s (or someone elses) ability to do the job”, yet he managed to create one. Let’s see. - Someone can have a certain job and have the ability to do it properly. - Someone can have a certain job, yet/despite lacking the ability to do it properly. - Someone can have a certain job, yet someone else would be better suited for it. - Someone can have a certain job and the power to force others not do to it. - Someone can have a certain job and lack the power to force others not do do it. - Someone can lack a certain job, yet have the ability to do it properly. - Someone can lack a certain job, and also lack the ability to do it properly. I omit the rest, because they add no new thoughts. In no way or form is CONCORD’s ability to kill the gankers connected to someone’s ability to kill them as well. In no way or form is it the game’s fault that the so called AntiGankers as a group (who bark way more than they bite) would be incapable of dealing with solo, or fleet gankers. Proof for this lies in the fact that **other people, in different spaces, don’t lack the ability to do the same to other single pilots or fleets**. The fact that CONCORD pops in and kills them anyway is irrelevant, because **the point is to stop the gank before the victim explodes** , of which **shooting down enough dps to achieve the goal** is an important part of the process. A **mix** of dps (on the gankers) and reps (on the victim) seems to be the best way to achieve that goal. What is it that keeps the so called AntiGankers from achieving that goal, despite not being an actual community capable of properly working together? (Which CCP is now trying to deal with anyway, see co-op PvE, which destined this thread to pointlessness…) ---
**Author:** ![Ralph\_King-Griffin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ralph_king-griffin/32/252855_2.png) [@Ralph\_King-Griffin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ralph_King-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 1:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/947 "2017-11-28T13:01:38Z")
all of these things have been used effectively in the past, unless iv missed some updates they should still be valid. the limiting factor has always been coordinating _effective_ pilots and responding to efforts to counter appropriately. this ist theory, it works , but it takes effective piloting to make it so. ---
**Author:** ![Ima\_Wreckyou](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ima_wreckyou/32/235531_2.png) [@Ima\_Wreckyou](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ima_Wreckyou)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 1:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/948 "2017-11-28T13:02:29Z")
Yes, but that is how it already is. There are cheap specialized t1 hulls for logistic and electronic warfare which can cancel out multiple gank chars for a lot less ISK than the gank ship. At the same time that ship will not be lost and there is even potential for reward in bounty and loot as the destroyed gank ship wreck is free for everyone. I don’t see how they need any more help. They don’t have to commit expensive assets, they have potential for rewards. The only problem they have is their toxic community of loners, butthurt carebears, and self proclaimed white-knights who think because they take on the mantle of the “hero” like in any regular MMO that makes them somehow better people and therefore entitled to special treatment in the sandbox. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 1:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033/949 "2017-11-28T13:10:47Z")
The above was pretty much my thoughts too. But unless someone provides any data I suppose we will go round in circles again [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033.md?page=45) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-cost-of-suicide-ganking-is-too-low/40033.md?page=47)