# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 101
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2041 "2018-10-09T20:29:29Z")
There’s a difference between doom-saying, and being able to extrapolate from the data presented (in this case, the CSM’s reactions, and CCP’s bringing _this_, specific data and player slope to their attention). The wardec issue appears to be a potential threat to the overall health of the game. If this is _not_ true, then I certainly hope someone who has the numbers will say so. Until then, sticking your head in the sand helps nobody, and nothing. But your argument from the beginning has been ‘screw those people, I like it when they suffer’, so… yeah, think I’m done w/you. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2042 "2018-10-09T20:32:16Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > There’s a difference between doom-saying, and being able to extrapolate from the data presented Depends on who is doing the extrapolation. The doomsayer always believes his extrapolation to be correct and without a doubt in his mind. ---
**Author:** ![Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dantelion_shinoni/32/383315_2.png) [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dantelion_Shinoni)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2043 "2018-10-09T21:13:56Z")
> [@Annah\_Tsero](#): > > > And I see Amah Tesero which is Dom Arkaral > > You should stop falsely accusing me of being him. > I’m going to start filing in tickets if you persist… Judging from him knowing about what happened on the WarDec discord and the perspective he has of it, yeah I wouldn’t be surprised if it was Dom. Although there is a serious lack of insulting everyone of being a carebear or a miner, maybe he is reining his darkest instincts in. More importantly, I have spent enough times on those forums to realize that there is something deeeeeeply flawed in the denizens posting here. @Whitehound you can be as much of a sophist as you want, make the most grandiose speech about the harshness of EVE, in the end the only metrics that will ■■■■■■■ matter is the amount of money CCP makes and the Concurrent Users. If CCP wants to have a dead game in their hands, they would do well to listen to people like you. The only path you offer to EVE is one of hurling itself madly into irrelevancy. If making this game realize its potential means sacrificing your type of players, I think it’s well worth it. And I bet CCP will realize it soon enough. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2044 "2018-10-09T21:23:42Z")
> [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](#): > > Judging from him knowing about what happened on the WarDec discord and the perspective he has of it, there’s a whole lot of us in there I’m just another duder in there 🙂 besides, things like that tend to travel fast across platforms 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dantelion_shinoni/32/383315_2.png) [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dantelion_Shinoni)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2045 "2018-10-09T21:24:37Z")
I hope you are not lying for the sake of internet forums arguments. It’s bad for your soul. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2046 "2018-10-09T21:25:00Z")
> [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](#): > > If making this game realize its potential means sacrificing your type of players, I think it’s well worth it. I’m simply a little bit more experienced and a little less emotional about it than you are, but that’s about it. You then seem to be getting the hang of it. Question is, do you really mean it or will you fall back to wanting a game for all and every player imaginable? Right now you’re really just willing to sacrifice me and that’s not a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2047 "2018-10-09T21:29:05Z")
> [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](#): > > It’s bad for your soul. are you implying such things exist in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dantelion_shinoni/32/383315_2.png) [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dantelion_Shinoni)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2048 "2018-10-09T21:34:45Z")
> [@Whitehound](#): > > but that’s about it. You then seem to be getting the hang of it. Sad thing is, it does **not** have to be so. That EVE culture could be preserved while still allowing for more players to discover and enjoy EVE. This game has an Enormous potential. The problem is that people want to ab.so.lu.te.ly make it a us vs. them, sure not all players are cut for full-loot PvP, but if your goal is to weed out anyone that doesn’t start the game with your exact mindset, instead of nurturing them into it, you will just end up playing alone a game nobody cares about. We don’t have to torture our new players, we can nurture them, and that without sacrificing EVE’s culture. > [@Annah\_Tsero](#): > > are you implying such things exist in the first place? I feel sad for you. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2049 "2018-10-09T21:35:49Z")
> [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](#): > > I feel sad for you. Eh? Why? ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2050 "2018-10-09T21:49:29Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Why do you consistently frame things in a way that appears to indicate that your fun _has_ to come at someone else’s expense? Business school in a lot of parts of the world. The win win agreement is going down the drain as a thing. Win lose is the only way people feel good. Anyway. I’ve wandered off topic a bit here. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2051 "2018-10-09T21:50:51Z")
> [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](#): > > The problem is that people want to ab.so.lu.te.ly make it a us vs. them, sure not all players are cut for full-loot PvP, but if your goal is to weed out anyone that doesn’t start the game with your exact mindset, instead of nurturing them into it, you will just end up playing alone a game nobody cares about. That’s again irrelevant. Of course it is a “us versus them”. Game makers are in competition after all. To abandon your own culture to go after the players of other games is the worst CCP could do. It would mean to give up their leadership in this gaming segment and all for making a sucker move. If you think this would keep them alive then only because you don’t see how much of death scream this is. CCP and EVE Online needs to keep their originality. Especially EVE Online since it is their longest standing title. Heck, it’s even in the Museum of Modern Art. You want to sacrifice this for the off chance of keeping it alive. Truth is, you’ve switch to the camp of the “EVE is dying” people without realising it. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 10:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2052 "2018-10-09T22:49:52Z")
> [@Noragen\_Neirfallas](#): > > Can I take a moment to point out that 22-1 is not even a high kd with the way zkill works. There are super pilots in pl with several hundred to 1. Hell my own KB is 20-1 and I’ve spent almost my entire career in small gangs or just me and my ALTs The problem with this kind of thinking is as follows. 100 man fleet fights another 100 man fleet. The fight could end pretty even, both sides losing ships at the same time until the end, but as long as you are one of the last survivors, you get nearly 100kills for your 1 loss. The bigger the fleet the higher the average kd ratios. The likes of hi-sec wardeccers are all small gang fights. They just hardly ever die. (go station games). ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 11:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2053 "2018-10-09T23:11:56Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Where a subcap, or normal capital, will be unable to tether when pointed by even a single point, supercapitals remain able to re-tether until their warp stability limit is exceeded (as per live testing in 6RCQ, in August). That actually makes sense, as long as this is consistent with a DST or Venture still being able to tether if only long-pointed by a single ship? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2054 "2018-10-09T23:15:34Z")
It does make sense, but it also introduces problems. 1 subcap can keep 1 subcap from tethering. 1 titan cannot produce 50 points to hold down another titan. ---
**Author:** ![Jenn\_aSide](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jenn_aside/32/384682_2.png) [@Jenn\_aSide](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jenn_aSide)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 1:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2055 "2018-10-10T01:26:53Z")
> [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](#): > > We don’t have to torture our new players, we can nurture them, and that without sacrificing EVE’s culture. And yet EVE Online was a more popular game when it tortured new players (it sure as hell tortured me). EVE is the most ‘balanced’ it’s ever been, it’s the most new player friendly it’s ever been. It’s in WAY better technical shape that it was when I started in 2007. And people have been beating the same drum you are since it began, **Where are all these promised new players?** CCP did what you think it should (tried to “open up the game to new players”), year after year after year, [especially for the last 6 and a half years](https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-12-05-as-eve-online-retribution-expansion-launches-ccp-reveals-master-plan-to-make-its-famously-impenetrable-mmo-accessible) > # As Eve Online Retribution expansion launches, CCP reveals master plan to make its famously impenetrable MMO accessible > > John Lander lays the foundation for the next decade of Eve. That was 2012… Skill injectors (so regular MMO players had a path to ‘catch yup’ to the veterans, Alpha Clones, Tutorials, Safeties, “don’t do that” pop ups telling you everything from “don’t forget your cargo” to “don’t jump into low sec”, and on and on. And here we are having the same discussion in 2018 as if none of the above even happened. WHEN do people come to the conclusion that what they believe doesn’t work? WHEN do they stop digging the same hole deeper despite never finding gold? When do we learn that the key to getting and keeping adult gamers is treating them like adults who can find their own way instead of like children that need hand holding? In game and out… EVE was a better game when it told all of us “here’s a space ship, go ■■■■ yourself” IMO. Every attempt to change that in the name of **_potential_** has failed. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 2:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2056 "2018-10-10T02:54:47Z")
> [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](#): > > I feel sad for you. why? because I have other beliefs? lmao beliefs based on facts, not heresay (see a pattern here? 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 3:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2057 "2018-10-10T03:49:53Z")
> [@Jenn\_aSide](#): > > And yet EVE Online was a more popular game when it tortured new players (it sure as hell tortured me). This was also during a time where every MMO game was growing regardless of how bad it was. So claiming EVE grew during that time is hardly a statistic that can be attributed to that horrible experience. The market has moved, there aren’t millions of people seeking MMO’s prepared to put up with bad mechanics anymore. There are more games on the market and customers are more educated and aware of bad mechanics thanks to social media. This means that fixing bad mechanics should be a priority. By Bad mechanics I mean both ones that are badly balanced, and mechanics that while balanced may not be fun or engaging. The former, would be pre tiericide ships, or perhaps the current loki. The later I would point at mechanics such as wardecs or ganking for this. They simply aren’t fun for most people engaged with them. Especially on the receiving end. This doesn’t mean that they aren’t balanced mind you, but that there should be an alternative way of engaging with the mechanic that increases fun, while keeping balance somewhat close to where it is now. ---
**Author:** ![Noragen\_Neirfallas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/noragen_neirfallas/32/375148_2.png) [@Noragen\_Neirfallas](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Noragen_Neirfallas)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 3:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2058 "2018-10-10T03:58:13Z")
I’m pointing out its a bad metric to use. Not that there isn’t a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 5:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2059 "2018-10-10T05:21:15Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Nor will that matter, as I stated above, an NS Mother Corp can still just form multiple Social Corps, all of whom are given access and good rates at their HS Player alt Corp structures. Like that doesn’t happen already? What does it matter if all the structures are in the HS Player alt Corporation? Declare war on it. If its destroyed, the social corporations would then be deprived of whatever facilities it provides. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 5:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2060 "2018-10-10T05:25:40Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Because you arent reading accurately, have an overt agenda, and are trolling/spamming. You are advocating to do next to nothing, which isn’t working according to CCP Data. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=100) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=102)