# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 112
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2261 "2018-10-10T19:29:41Z")
> [@Buoytender\_Bob](#): > > I sat at the PvE roundtable and it appeared that the people advocating against any change in missions were mainly NS players (and their alts). Have you watched the forums, though? The PvE roundtables at EVE gatherings are not the majority of people running missions, or giving feedback on missions. Go look at the October balance pass devblog feedback thread, where HS PvE players actively complain at the CSM members in the thread for advocating new and ‘engaging’ PvE gameplay in HS. ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2262 "2018-10-10T19:32:35Z")
I meant last years Jin’taan sponsored event. I do frequent and post both the CSM Hisec and other areas in the forums. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2263 "2018-10-10T19:32:57Z")
PA wants to show them the numbers so it can show CCP the money! I think we will get new players eventually. Koreans own CCP now, and they say what are the goals. ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2264 "2018-10-10T19:40:03Z")
I will go back and look at that particular thread. However, as I, and numerous others, have posted in threads like introducing Resource Wars and Abyssal Space, we don’t like the concept of either forcing gameplay or creating content where specially ships fitted a certain way are the go to way to min/max high end content. It would be nice if CCP would make a much larger effort to reach out to the most underserved part of the EVE community so that opinions outside of the highest end players are discovered. However, the ongoing discussion here is the current WD retention problem, so… ---
**Author:** ![Iowa\_Banshee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iowa_banshee/32/218394_2.png) [@Iowa\_Banshee](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iowa_Banshee)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2265 "2018-10-10T19:40:18Z")
I have never initiated a war in hi-sec - Tho I have been on the receiving end. I think I was war-dec’d because at the time was a frequent flyer in and out of Jita and the people at war with me sat in Jita. Can anyone give me an idea as to the reasons their corp would want to declare war on another - Gain Territory - Remove Structures - To get Targets - A Grievance - other ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2266 "2018-10-10T19:40:54Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > **Problem 2:** … > That’s the problem CCP’s facing if they want to continue to support the idea of a relatively safe space that can still be systemically disrupted. That’s actually not much of a problem for CCP. ~~I don’t have the link to the video, but~~ CCP has shown in the past how the age of players is distributed and over time. It showed very nicely that there are many more players coming _and_ leaving than the game actually retains. EVE may be 15 years old, but the average player doesn’t stay this long. They do really leave in droves every year, just to make room for about as many new players. So don’t try to focus on fixing all the reasons why they leave. Accept it as normality and then try to find ways to extend their stay while they play EVE. That’s all it really takes. It doesn’t require drastic changes. It requires for the game to become more fun and for a player’s game-play to have a little more longevity. … I’ve found the video, so you can see for yourself: [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/0/a/0a6933b2286b8813c7859466caccd4a71a806188.jpeg "Historical player age distribution in EVE Online (2003-2014)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVWC6I-FLEA) ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2267 "2018-10-10T19:42:09Z")
> [@Buoytender\_Bob](#): > > we don’t like the concept of either forcing gameplay or creating content where specially ships fitted a certain way are the go to way to min/max high end content. You mean like existing L4-5 missions, where fitting out your Drake to tank the specific damage type you already know is going to be needed, before you undock? It’s not like ‘specially fitted ships’ is at all new. ---
**Author:** ![Iowa\_Banshee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iowa_banshee/32/218394_2.png) [@Iowa\_Banshee](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iowa_Banshee)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2268 "2018-10-10T19:45:35Z")
> [@Iowa\_Banshee](#): > > I have never initiated a war in hi-sec - Tho I have been on the receiving end. I think I was war-dec’d because at the time was a frequent flyer in and out of Jita and the people at war with me sat in Jita. > > Can anyone give me an idea as to the reasons their corp would want to declare war on another > > - Gain Territory > - Remove Structures > - To get Targets > - A Grievance > - other If we know we may find a solution - I mean if the major purpose of a war dec is to get targets maybe a revamp of the bounty system would work better - leaving wardecs for territory disputes and grievances ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2269 "2018-10-10T19:50:30Z")
A lot of CCPs recent pve has come pre nerfed because of null outcry over it and the perceived risk making potential. Stuff like RW actually was pretty well made, though I’ll admit it wouldn’t hurt it to be more open as to what and how many can enter the sites. RW fell down though on the rewards side, where most rewards you lost income on. And this has become typical of pretty much any highsec PvE content getting hammered before it even launches in this way. Bit of a side tangent though. And not very relevant to people staying when war decced really. ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2270 "2018-10-10T19:54:43Z")
Funny thing is, I’m not sure that after 11 years I even own a Drake 😯 But, I get what you mean. At least in the HS level 4s you can vary the ship class and fits, as well as races and weapon types. Try that in AS; try soloing the higher end RW… Sorry, but those friends and people I talk to who have no other (or little) EVE gameplay outside of HS, are finding little reason to keep paying CCP’s bills at the current game mechanics and development rate…and not one has said they were against adding the new AI or using the AS site generator to add new content. It appears that CCP needs to more aggressively reach out to gather that relevant data they are so fond of stating drives their development. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 8:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2271 "2018-10-10T20:01:50Z")
> [@Buoytender\_Bob](#): > > Try that in AS; try soloing the higher end RW I have. There’s room for variation. ---
**Author:** ![Eve\_Griefer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/eve_griefer/32/277788_2.png) [@Eve\_Griefer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Eve_Griefer)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2272 "2018-10-10T20:28:40Z")
> [@Whitehound](#): > > Making war targets visible on the map can however have a similar effect when war parties see where everyone is. Then they can pull their people together, try to flank, to bait and try other tactics, and thereby limit the space where the war takes place, and all on its own while being actually fully open to where this happens. That’s an interesting idea worth investigating as a means to get away from ‘hub-humping’ and back into hunting. If it was limited to showing where members of a corporation or alliance had been active in the last 30 minutes it might give enough assistance to hunting without making defence impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dantelion_shinoni/32/383315_2.png) [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dantelion_Shinoni)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2273 "2018-10-10T20:34:24Z")
> [@Whitehound](#): > > No. Players don’t like structure bashes. Remember? > [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](#): > > 1. Bashing Structures is boring, nobody wants to do it for Wars > > The Structure used for War declaration does **not** have to be the same as the other structures. > > A lighter, more practical, easier to reinforce structure can be used. > The goal is to provide a point of interest where both sides can front against each other, the structure is merely an excuse for that, it does **not** have to be Asset-protected, have Tethering, or any of that ■■■■. > > So saying that Structure Bashing is a point against Wardec Structures is disingenious, Wardec structures do not have to be the same as the other structures. At this point, it’s like you can’t even read. Get out of your NPC behavior and actually think please. > [@Whitehound](#): > > ![](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solecist_project/40/97493_1.png) Solecist\_Project: > > > The same thing is always said by literally everyone else who had his nerve tickled. 😊 > > No. You’re just seeking attention now. This isn’t about the topic, this is all about you. […] I will agree with you on that, though. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2274 "2018-10-10T20:40:29Z")
No, it’s really just silly trying to tie wardecs to structures. In high-sec are corporations usually much smaller than in null-sec. In null-sec does it make sense to tie wars to structures. In high-sec is this much more difficult to even get some numbers up to have a fight. When you there no longer allow wars without structures will you put a massive dampener on all high-sec wars. It’s just not realistic and not even a corp such as Marmite, which is one of the biggest high-sec corps, has an interest in bashing structures. You’re really just trying to slap them with something we already know they don’t want. At worst will it enable the more experienced corps to dominate the smaller ones simply by knowing the meta better than the new corps, leading to more frustration and not less. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2275 "2018-10-10T20:52:13Z")
If not wardec changes then maybe CCP could add wardec immunity contract to NEStore, for a small sum of 500 PLEX per month. 😂 ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2276 "2018-10-10T21:18:14Z")
> [@Iowa\_Banshee](#): > > Can anyone give me an idea as to the reasons their corp would want to declare war on another fun pure fun ---
**Author:** ![Zar\_Myx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zar_myx/32/75333_2.png) [@Zar\_Myx](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zar_Myx)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2277 "2018-10-10T21:20:23Z")
> [@Whitehound](#): > > > daily bump for spatially limited wardec’s. > > You mean PvP arenas? Because that’s essentially what this is. > > I fear that for some will this turn into a Whack-A-Mole game, with targets evading the area only to enter it from another point. It may also be used to further focus wars onto trade routes and market hubs. > > Making war targets visible on the map can however have a similar effect when war parties see where everyone is. Then they can pull their people together, try to flank, to bait and try other tactics, and thereby limit the space where the war takes place, and all on its own while being actually fully open to where this happens. > > What could work though are time-zone limited wardecs. Corporations would be required to specify a time window of at least 8+ hours in which they are open to warfare. This then allows corporations from geographically different regions to have their wars when most of their members are online, while they can gather resources and refill their stocks during the off times. Although this may be more of an option for social corps so they can get a taste of warfare on their own terms. I agree, it can turn into a whack-a-mole, if you want to continually follow and dec a corp. But I am not sure that is a real bad thing. Right now, they dec a corp and sit back and do nothing. Zero work on the aggressive side. Don’t get me wrong, the aggressors need to be organized and outfitted along with gathering basic intel. They have work, but they live for that while the defensive hisec corp does not. And given you are not able cheaply and easily dec a corp in the whole universe, I agree trade routes and hubs might even be more active. I believe with cost multipliers for different systems, this can be handled. Or who knows, people start to spread out? I know that won’t happen, CCP has desired that for years 🙂 I also like the timezone idea. Anything that give the defensive corp a little control or options regarding their situation. We don’t want them to game (and CCP is starting to agree). And undocking in a warship has always been available to them, and they have ignored that option in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Azariah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_azariah/32/512626_2.png) [@Mike\_Azariah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Azariah)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 10:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2278 "2018-10-10T22:39:22Z")
> [@Whitehound](#): > > Do you seriously want to let Minecraft players into EVE? > > You cannot want to include any possible player into a single game. It’s ridiculous. > > This is still a PvP game and some players are simply not discouraged by the NPE, but only on first contact with the enemy. That’s just how it is. > > What other mechanic do you there have in mind to sort out the PvPers from the “oh, I thought this was a game for me”-type of player? Yes I want minecraft players and lego structures. I want Eve to be a vast and vibrant collection of the best players of all styles, not a niche little corner where we snarl at each other unintelligibly. I don’t think we do have to sort players out but find ways to include ALL of them. I am sure we differ on this point but if I run for CSM again? You can quote me and to choose how you want to vote. m ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Azariah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_azariah/32/512626_2.png) [@Mike\_Azariah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Azariah)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 10:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2279 "2018-10-10T22:49:47Z")
Has madness been ruled out? How about the desire to help in something you really like? m ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 10:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2280 "2018-10-10T22:59:05Z")
> [@Mike\_Azariah](#): > > I don’t think we do have to sort players out but find ways to include ALL of them. No, we don’t. As long as EVE is a PvP game at its core will it be players sorting each other out. So the only way to get them ALL to play peacefully along is by taking away their weapons. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=111) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=113)