# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 118
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 11:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2383 "2018-10-11T11:34:51Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > To spell it out in shorter words since you failed to comprehend even on rereading. Did you read this and comprehend this? > **War Declaration** > In the EVE Leadership meeting the CSM was presented with numbers resulting from research into the state of war declarations in EVE and those numbers quite starkly showed how asymmetric the situation is, and how war declarations allow a small number of players to negatively affect a huge number of people, with low risk. These numbers may be discussed further by CCP at a later date. PIRAT is small, with only 238-240members. Its eminently relevant how many other players they are negatively affecting, asymmetrically, with low risk, with their 161 current declared wardecs, not to mention others previously. To my reading, PIRAT fits the description of the problem, exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 11:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2384 "2018-10-11T11:45:31Z")
And now I know 100% that you are just trolling this thread, between the way you flip flop back and forward between views, and the way you don’t even bother reading other peoples posts before spamming replies. Have fun with your bridge. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 11:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2385 "2018-10-11T11:46:52Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Have fun with your bridge. Do you agree PIRAT fits the text described as the problem in the CSM Summit minutes, as issued by CCP for CSM to view? PIRATs wardec history is so vast, that it literally cannot be displayed on Dotlan. It crashes the page. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2386 "2018-10-11T12:06:19Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Do you agree PIRAT fits the text described as the problem in the CSM Summit minutes, as issued by CCP for CSM to view? The problem is really that a wardec alone doesn’t affect you negatively as described in the text. It’s the loss of your ship, which affects you negatively. So even if PIRAT could declare a million wars do they also first have to come with their ships and actually shoot you. This problem started in some people’s heads because they **fear** wars and it’s then their fear which drives the entire discussion and ultimate into an irrational direction, because it was irrational to begin with. Or would you say that you had a negative on all of EVE if you declared war on everyone? Or would you just be one man shooting, with everyone being able to shoot you, too? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2387 "2018-10-11T12:07:05Z")
> [@Whitehound](#): > > The problem is really that a wardec alone doesn’t affect you negatively as described in the text. It’s the loss of your ship, which affects you negatively. There is no specific mention of ship loss in the quote from the minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2388 "2018-10-11T12:07:38Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > There is no specific mention of ship loss in the quote from the minutes. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2389 "2018-10-11T12:09:13Z")
> [@Whitehound](#): > > > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > > > There is no specific mention of ship loss in the quote from the minutes. > > Exactly. Yes, no mention of ship loss, so dunno why you bring that up, when its not there. It says asymmetrically negatively affecting, to paraphrase. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2390 "2018-10-11T12:11:35Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Yes, no mention of ship loss, so dunno why you bring that up, when its not there. Because it’s being ignored. If you as a single player could declare a million wars, wouldn’t you be at more risk than the million others? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2391 "2018-10-11T12:15:25Z")
> **War Declaration** > In the EVE Leadership meeting the CSM was presented with numbers resulting from research into the state of war declarations in EVE and those numbers quite starkly showed how asymmetric the situation is, and how war declarations allow a small number of players to negatively affect a huge number of people, with low risk. These numbers may be discussed further by CCP at a later date. Does this not describe PIRAT exactly? Its a small Alliance, only with 238-240members in 13 Corps, whom have 160 active declared wardecs at this time, affecting far more than their own small number, and over 20k declared wardecs in their history. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2392 "2018-10-11T12:16:19Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Or are you degenerating to trolling anyone now Did you honestly expect anything different from Salvos? Lol ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2393 "2018-10-11T12:17:40Z")
As I predicted earlier, the mass wardeccers will show up to troll and misdirect from them being shown to be exactly the cause of the problem described in the quote from the CSM minutes, as presented to CSM by CCP leadership. This whole time we have been barking up the wrong tree. Now its clear which one needs to be addressed. The description of the problem, as a hole in EVE, fits the exact shape of PIRAT and others like it. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2394 "2018-10-11T12:17:44Z")
Anybody else thinks this thread is Proteused? 😏 ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2395 "2018-10-11T12:23:13Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Does this not describe PIRAT exactly? That’s not my point. I’m saying the analysis of wardecs is flawed. PIRAT can only do so much damage with their number of players, while their opponents are far more players. This is only turning into a witch hunt against PIRAT. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2396 "2018-10-11T12:24:49Z")
> [@Whitehound](#): > > This is only turning into a witch hunt against PIRAT. PIRAT doesnt matter. The problem they are causing, does. Its not PIRATS fault for exploiting the system as it is. But that doesnt mean that hole does not need to be fixed. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2397 "2018-10-11T12:25:45Z")
What I especially love is people complaining about wardeccers being too strong. But they have a couple dozens wars at all times. Why don’t people try working together or something? 😂 Oh wait Effort ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2398 "2018-10-11T12:29:45Z")
Ill be clear. PIRAT and others like it are not to blame. The wardec system that allows them to create the problem expressed by CCP to CSM, is. That needs to be fixed. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2399 "2018-10-11T12:32:16Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > But that doesnt mean that hole does not need to be fixed. There is no hole nor is there an exploit when a smaller group declares war on many others and intentionally chooses to have many enemies. To see this as a problem that needs fixing is completely against the fundamentals of PvP. It needs to be seen as bravery and find support. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2400 "2018-10-11T12:33:04Z")
> [@Whitehound](#): > > There is no hole nor is there an exploit when a smaller group declares war on many others and intentionally chooses to have many enemies. Wat… Explain what this quote means to you: > **War Declaration** > In the EVE Leadership meeting the CSM was presented with numbers resulting from research into the state of war declarations in EVE and those numbers quite starkly showed how asymmetric the situation is, and how war declarations allow a small number of players to negatively affect a huge number of people, with low risk. These numbers may be discussed further by CCP at a later date. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2401 "2018-10-11T12:34:41Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Explain what this quote means to you: In short, it’s fear mongering. It’s a politcal game instigated by larger alliances who want free routes into high-sec for making ISKs and not wanting to fight. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2402 "2018-10-11T12:34:57Z")
Salvos If people can’t be arsed to defend themselves from literally about 5p active players, it’s not up to CCP to change things That’s the only problem here: People being lazy crying plebs [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=117) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=119)