# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 127
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 3:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2563 "2018-10-12T15:10:59Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Nobody is penalized, if a Player Corp can pay the same fee for wardec immunity, as another Player Corp would pay to wardec them. The group that doesn’t want to have to put resources into PvP is being forced to put resources (the money paid to CONCORD) into PvP. Yeah, that’s a penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2564 "2018-10-12T15:13:08Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > > > Nobody is penalized, if a Player Corp can pay the same fee for wardec immunity, as another Player Corp would pay to wardec them. > > The group that doesn’t want to have to put resources into PvP is being forced to put resources (the money paid to CONCORD) into PvP. Yeah, that’s a penalty. Wat. They arent putting resources into PVP. They are putting resources into NOT being involved in PVP. Its not a penalty, its a paid immunity. If they dont want to pay, then dont, but they may get wardecced as a result. **Its really bizarre how you are trying to spin this around into a false narrative.** The Player Corp would just pay the same to NOT PVP, as another Player Corp that wants to PvP them. How the hell is that paying into PvP? Their payment goes to CONCORD, not to another Player Corp. They are paying the isk they have earned to NOT be wardecced. Same as those that want to wardec them would be paying the isk they have earned TO wardec them. ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 3:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2565 "2018-10-12T15:20:24Z")
I agree it’s up to CCP to find the solution to the problem, but CCP has always had a problem actually fixing an issue without a) not actually permantly fixing the issue and b) cheesing off a large number of people. See the October balance thread ( or earlier ship/gameplay threads). The people who are getting WD and leaving EVE don’t usually fill out the old “why are you leaving EVE” questioner sent to all leaving players, they rather just let their silence offer a big “f you” to both the company and the gameplay. Those of us who are still playing in HS after all these years do usually remain in contact with at least some of them, but I imagine CCP will continue to rely on the same group of echo chamber people they have in the past.The problem won’t get fixed, because they will address it from CCP/NS/elite player point of view, and the high attrition rate will continue, while CCP will continue to argue that the data ALWAYS supports their initial ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2566 "2018-10-12T15:24:37Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Wat. > > They arent putting resources into PVP. > > They are putting resources into NOT being involved in PVP. If I spend money on preventative medical care, I’m still spending money on healthcare. Spending money on preventative wardec immunity is still putting money into PvP. I am spending money that _only_ affects PvP: it removes other players’ ability to wardec me. It is being spent _against other players_. That is PvP. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2567 "2018-10-12T15:26:18Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I am spending money that _only_ affects PvP They would be paying their hard earned isk to prevent being wardecced. So what? Whats wrong with that? ---
**Author:** ![Keiko\_O\_dina](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/keiko_o_dina/32/101076_2.png) [@Keiko\_O\_dina](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Keiko_O_dina)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2568 "2018-10-12T15:26:21Z")
I think they are changing their tune, but they are equally baffled as to the solution. I also think that Wardecs are only a part of the new-player issue, so solving that might not fix retention, giving voice to the cry that it’s not PVPs fault that players leave. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2569 "2018-10-12T15:28:29Z")
‘Hi, you don’t want to have to devote time and effort to PvP. So we’re going to let you spend time and effort to making ISK that you can then spend on PvP.’ What part of ‘if you try to force them to do the things they don’t want to do, they’ll just find a game that _doesn’t_’ do you think changed there? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2570 "2018-10-12T15:31:11Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > ‘Hi, you don’t want to have to devote time and effort to PvP. So we’re going to let you spend time and effort to making ISK that you can then spend on PvP.’ > > What part of ‘if you try to force them to do the things they don’t want to do, they’ll just find a game that _doesn’t_’ do you think changed there? Why not allow Player Corps to pay the same fee to CONCORD for wardec immunity, as it costs another Player Corp to wardec them via CONCORD? Its 50 mil for ANY Player Corp, whether 1 member or 5000, to wardec a \<51 member Corp. Why shouldnt that Player Corp be able to pay the same to NOT be wardecced? Is your 50mil somehow better than mine to CONCORD? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2571 "2018-10-12T15:33:05Z")
By telling them ‘if you don’t want to PvP, instead you can spend money on PvP’ you’re basically telling them that some portion of their time and effort is going to be devoted to PvP. Worst, it’s insulting their intelligence to act like you’re not. I’m not saying ‘don’t let them pay’, I’m saying ‘why should they _have_ to?’ ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2572 "2018-10-12T15:34:22Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > By telling them ‘if you don’t want to PvP, instead you can spend money on PvP’ Paying 50mil to CONCORD for immunity to wardecs, in no way, shape or form, is paying money to PvP. **Its paying money NOT to PvP.** _Do you see the difference?_ ---
**Author:** ![Keiko\_O\_dina](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/keiko_o_dina/32/101076_2.png) [@Keiko\_O\_dina](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Keiko_O_dina)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 3:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2573 "2018-10-12T15:36:26Z")
I tend to agree with @Arrendis. Paying not to PVP, is forcing me to participate in PVP, by spending ISK to opt out. I may well do it, but it will be a grudge buy. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2574 "2018-10-12T15:38:10Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Paying 50mil to CONCORD, in no way, shape or form, is paying money to PvP. > > Its paying money NOT to PvP. Paying 50 million to CONCORD means 50 million ISK is being put into a payment that only affects PvP. That is spending money on PvP. If I buy a home security system, that money is being spent on crime—specifically, crime prevention, but it’s still money being spent _because of crime_. In other words: Yes, spending money specifically to avoid PvP **is** spending money on PvP. Just like spending money to avoid getting sick is money spent on healthcare. It’s money I don’t have anymore, and can’t spend on anything else. It means the time I spent getting that money, I indirectly devoted to PvP. ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2575 "2018-10-12T15:40:23Z")
If you have the three choices of: 1. Don’t undock. Lose any chance of having fun and making money. 2. Pay 50 million EXTRA per week to enjoy basic gameplay. 3. Undock and lose more than 50+ million due to unfair odds and no fun gameplay. I see why EVE has such a horrendous retention rate; why can’t CCP and others? ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 3:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2576 "2018-10-12T15:51:54Z")
> [@Iowa\_Banshee](#): > > One solutions would be just get rid of wardecs in open space and make it that you can only fight each other on grid with an owned structure. Why is every suggestion you make a complete carebears shield? If I want to war dec and hunt people then so be it, shouldn’t have to require them to enter an arena (simplest way to describe your idea). ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 4:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2577 "2018-10-12T16:04:58Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > it’s about his assets in the citadel I know, I wrote about “no guarantees” in case of capsuleer owned structures. Just like when you build a house in a jungle where native indians can get it leveled with ground because its their jungle. The assets will throw into a fire because they are cursed by white man. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2578 "2018-10-12T16:22:18Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > In other words: Yes, spending money specifically to avoid PvP **is** spending money on PvP. Player Corps paying to wardec a target, are paying TO PvP. Player Corps paying for immunity, are paying NOT TO PvP. This isnt rocket science to comprehend. ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 4:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2579 "2018-10-12T16:24:44Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Player Corps paying for immunity, are paying NOT TO PvP. It is PvP in that you are denying targets to an enemy, and it’s the worst kind as in this case it’s literally pay to ‘win’. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2580 "2018-10-12T16:25:52Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > It is PvP in that you are denying targets to an enemy The target Player Corp can also log off, and never return, thus denying targets and content to all of EVE, forever. ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2581 "2018-10-12T16:29:35Z")
Which is what happens now. What you are suggesting is that corps pay a 200 mil per month tax to not be war targets. This is ridiculous. Take this to it’s logical extreme, the NPE will have to mention this so new players aren’t disadvantaged. Nearly all wars would become impossible. You just completely killed wars as a mechanic. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2582 "2018-10-12T16:32:14Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > Which is what happens now. What you are suggesting is that corps pay a 200 mil per month tax to not be war targets. This is ridiculous. I’m suggesting a Player Corp can buy immunity from wardecs, at the same cost it would be for another Player Corp to wardec them. For a Player Corp with \<51 members, that would be 50mil per week, per the current formula. Same as the cost to wardec that Player Corp. What is ridiculous, is a +2000 man Corp or Alliance can wardec a 10 man Corp for only 50mil a week, whereas for that 10 man Corp it costs 500mil to wardec a +2000 man Player Corp, per week. I know what you guys are doing. Just twisting, spamming and acting like you dont see the point. The current wardec cost system is ridiculous. My suggestion to fix it, is not. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=126) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=128)