# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 130
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2623 "2018-10-12T18:40:53Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Some wont care about being wardecced, some will. No hisec PvE group will accept being wardecced. They’ll just wait for a dec to come in and then pay off concord, or pre-emptively pay each week if that’s how you avoid wars. The only players who won’t will be new players who don’t know better and we’re back to square one. Taking the above in to account, how do the wardec groups then prosecute war against targets? A functioning system needs to work both ways. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Why would they pay for wardec immunity, when they can haul on NPC Corp alts, non-wardecced alts, or contracts covered by collateral? Because it’s a lot easier, and you can save tax too to offset the cost. You can also put your trade alt in to save tax too. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > You are so bad at this. Please use your brain. I’m sure I’m not the only one finding this amusing. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 6:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2624 "2018-10-12T18:42:57Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > I’m sure I’m not the only one finding this amusing. Ikr @Salvos Denial isn’t a river in Africa ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 6:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2625 "2018-10-12T18:49:56Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > They’ll just wait for a dec to come in and then pay off concord, or pre-emptively pay each week if that’s how you avoid wars. They cant stop a current wardec with it, but can pay the same as the aggressor did to prevent it in the next week cycle. CONCORD doesnt care whether its you or another Player Corp paying them. Its 50mil, either way. > [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > The only players who won’t will be new players who don’t know better and we’re back to square one. Nothing in the minutes says its new players being lost. Thats in your own head. New players can join existing Player Corps that do know to pay it, and can afford it, until they set off on their own. > [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > Because it’s a lot easier, and you can save tax too to offset the cost. You can also put your trade alt in to save tax too. You can haul on your NPC alt, non-wardecced alt, or contract hauling to someone else, with negligible tax, already. Fyi, most of EVE is doing exactly that, already. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2626 "2018-10-12T18:55:34Z")
@Corraidhin_Farsaidh save your brain cells, ignore salvosbot ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2627 "2018-10-12T19:01:43Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > The cant stop a current wardec with it, but can pay the same as the aggressor did to prevent it in the next week cycle. So it in effect becomes a tax to avoid wars that only the newest players won’t know to pay. At least 90% of corps (and 100% of the wealthy more target worthy corps) will pay this in advance because it’s easier. Do you think the wardecs will a) Target the remaining corps brutally b) just leave the game as there’s no longer a place for them c) gank the living shite out of everything, unless you pay them to be added to the #BlueToo list d) acombination of the above, none of which is healthy for the game ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2628 "2018-10-12T19:04:52Z")
> [@Annah\_Tsero](#): > > save your brain cells, ignore salvosbot It’s this or paying attention to Peppa Pig for the 27569876th time. Given that I’m at the point where I’m thinking “You know, Daddy Pig looks so much younger without his glasses” beating my head against a brick wall has some appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2629 "2018-10-12T19:06:59Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > So it in effect becomes a tax Its not a tax. > [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > At least 90% of corps (and 100% of the wealthy more target worthy corps) will pay this in advance because it’s easier. They can choose to, or not. Just liken hey can choose to wardec, or not. They cant do both at the same time, however > [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > a) Target the remaining corps brutally Why waste 50mil on a target that doesnt even have 50mil in their total assets? > [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > b) just leave the game as there’s no longer a place for them Who will leave game? > [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > c) gank the living shite out of everything, unless you pay them to be added to the #BlueToo list You mean suicide gank. Thats a different mechanic. > [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > d) acombination of the above, none of which is healthy for the game Whats not healthy about Player Corps being able to play the game the way they want, if they are willing to pay to do so? If they pay the same 50mil to NOT be wardecced, as you would pay 50mil to wardec them, its zero sum. What is not healthy is players leaving due to wardecs, as states in the Summit minutes, and reported by CCP to CSM. Did you forget that? ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2630 "2018-10-12T19:46:37Z")
There is no shield timer. You can get 24h between shield and armour timer which shuts the structure down since that timer is only a time of day timer. It’s only the hull timer which forces I believe 5 days in highsec minimum. If you want to call people ignorant try not to throw wrong information about yourself. It looks bad. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2631 "2018-10-12T20:07:17Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > If you want to call people ignorant try not to throw wrong information about yourself. It looks bad. I have serious issues and concerns about Annah, but, its no wonder people have trouble figuring this out: ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/c/0/c09bbce202cc8cdacf2ddaf4b10641f6f7cabd8e.jpeg) Its a very valid and serious concern that EVE mechanics have been “over-engineered”. This applies to the wardec problem too. Its not just legacy code, its legacy design concept that problems can be fixed by complicating them further. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2632 "2018-10-12T20:16:02Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > There is no shield timer. I can tell pretty quickly you’ve never shot at a citadel. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > You can get 24h between shield and armour timer which shuts the structure down since that timer is only a time of day timer. It’s only the hull timer which forces I believe 5 days in highsec minimum. See above > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > If you want to call people ignorant try not to throw wrong information about yourself. It looks bad. If you want to call out people who call ignorant people by what they are, try not to be one of those being called what they are 😉 Come back when you’ve been in an organization that killed citadels daily. 😘 P.s., you know you’re bad when even salvos proves you wrong 😂 ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2633 "2018-10-12T20:18:06Z")
> [@Annah\_Tsero](#): > > I can tell pretty quickly you’ve never shot at a citadel. Did you look at the diagram I sourced from CCPs Support page on this? ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2634 "2018-10-12T20:23:17Z")
It’s probably what I’ve pointed out in the first post somewhere 200 posts ago There are 3 timers at most, only if the structure has power. Low power get 2 timers, shield and structure. Timers are according to the owner-set vulnerability windows after the shield has been rf’ed. It’s pretty basic stuff. Nothing new to me ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2635 "2018-10-12T20:25:16Z")
> [@Annah\_Tsero](#): > > It’s probably what I’ve pointed out in the first post somewhere 200 posts ago > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Did you look at the diagram I sourced from CCPs Support page on this? Thats not an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2636 "2018-10-12T20:26:03Z")
I don’t have to answer. I’ve done it more than enough times to know every quirks… ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2637 "2018-10-12T20:29:05Z")
> [@Annah\_Tsero](#): > > I don’t have to answer. > > I’ve done it more than enough times to know every quirks… So you didnt. And all your experience is anecdotal. I dont get people like you. You genuinely dont care about data or fact, just your own view and subjective experience. You cant even answer if you have looked at the diagram. Anyways, the shield timers on structures is not in any issue here or in the minutes. The diagram shows the shield will return, if armor is not reduced to zero. I think in your case, though you didnt know how it works, you havent ever failed to destroy shields, armor and hull, in sequence, so youve never realized that they do infact repair if not reduced to zero. Observer bias. ---
**Author:** ![Ildrara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ildrara/32/56659_2.png) [@Ildrara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ildrara)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2638 "2018-10-12T21:47:41Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > So you didnt. > And all your experience is anecdotal. > > I dont get people like you. > You genuinely dont care about data or fact, just your own view and subjective experience. > You cant even answer if you have looked at the diagram. Whatever you say Proteus. Doesn’t look like you have any experience at all. Attacking others that have played hundreds of times more than you is kinda stupid. Proteus Onzo School of Applied Knowledge 2018.10.05 12:26 to this day (7 Days) ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 9:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2639 "2018-10-12T21:53:25Z")
The shield timer got removed with upwell 2.0. You are out of date on your structure mechanics. Shield is 24/7 vulnerable. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2640 "2018-10-12T22:25:49Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > EVE will always be hard for the uninformed that dont do their homework first. Its myopic that this view is essentially the root cause of the present situation with poor player retention… ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2641 "2018-10-12T22:30:33Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > These costs for recovery are absolutely inadequate, and as I said earlier, do not incentivize defending the structure, shipping stuff out, nor aggressing it. Is it the % that is wrong, or is it due to the massive inflationary pressure on prices because due to the ease of ISK generation by supers and rorqual fleets? ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2642 "2018-10-12T22:32:27Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > That is worth it to immunize a 500mil Raitaru, or 840mil Atrahus, all your corp members \<50, and their ships from a wardec. More HS structure spam? No thanks! [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=129) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=131)