# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 135
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 3:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2723 "2018-10-13T15:23:48Z")
> [@Buoytender\_Bob](#): > > All structures in an alliance should be combined to determine the limit; i.e., 1 small corporation with one structure and 2 small corps with no structure equals 1 medium alliance with 1 structure in determining what level war can be waged on them. That means that a full war type could be waged on a one man corp even if he granulated his alts into a bunch of one man corps,each with/without its own super secret clubhouse, which helps reduce the current structure spam in HS (or prevents making the current matter much worse). Why would those corps be in an alliance instead of just using standings and ACL settings on the structures? ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2724 "2018-10-13T15:24:57Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > At this point, ‘this debate’ is meaningless. There’s like 5 people going around in circles, bickering about social corps and making all sorts of wonderful proclamations about how things work that _don’t even exist_ at this point. I’d agree on this, any genuine ideas end up lost in the bicker chaff. There needs to be a genuine effort to discuss ideas, without the arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2725 "2018-10-13T15:38:42Z")
> [@Buoytender\_Bob](#): > > The ability to have a corporate office in a NPC station should be the least option to offer otherwise, and I REALLY hate to admit it, part of Proteus’ argument holds true. The Social Corp proponents are divided. Half says it will be just a NPC Corp with a name tag. Half say it will be just a Player Corp without a structure. Those are not the same. My concerns are that: 1. Neither changes ANYTHING about the wardec mechanic issues, at all. 2. The former is pointless, and just means you can have a named NPC Corp. 3. The latter is more problematic, as it deincentivises players from joining existing Player Corps that can handle the heat, even as wardec mechanics are now. 4. Fact of the matter is, new players should be encouraged to join existing Player Corps that can handle their operation. This provides a social environment, activities, financial and learning support. New players should not be forming their own Corps, Social or Player, because it invariably sets them up for disaster. 5. Instill maintain my doomsday prediction of how NS entities will exploit Social Corp mechanics, to dominate HS. Nothing I have read has convinced me otherwise, instead, its reinforced my concern on that. 6. If wardec mechanics arent addressed, it means these Social Corps will just end up in the same ■■■■ when they go Player Corp, log off, and never return. Look, guys. We have read in the minutes, that small groups of players are causing a disproportionate attrition of players out of EVE, due to wardec mechanics, and low risk to themselves. This is what we should be focusing on to fix. _The problem is not the absence of Social Corps._ **The problem is in the wardec mechanics.** ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2726 "2018-10-13T15:40:51Z")
Of course I understand the issue of how far do you go in terms of corrective action, but the issue is that it made the imbalance so much greater. And no I do not think that this reply is to troll me, you are understanding where I am coming from on this issue. I mention this because this and the imbalance around CODE’s easy freighter ganking are part of the huge and complex problem, and there is not an easy solution if you want to keep Eve true to its ideals. I want the ecosystem to develop to deal with war decs and that is why I am so in favour of those Propaganda structures and I will go as far as putting my own money and effort where my mouth is if that is instigated. I mentioned the Tech imbalance as an after thought because if that had not existed it is likely that we would still be using SBU’s in nullsec… ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 3:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2727 "2018-10-13T15:48:26Z")
Hats off to the ones writing paragraphs of text, bickering at each other over meaningless topics, in a meaningless thread though! ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 3:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2728 "2018-10-13T15:52:10Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > I want the ecosystem to develop to deal with war decs and that is why I am so in favour of those Propaganda structures and I will go as far as putting my own money and effort where my mouth is if that is instigated. The ecosystem _did_ develop to deal with war decs: a decade ago, there were pirate hunters who dealt with things like that. But—and this is a natural development that’s hard to avoid—one side got bigger than the other, and the end result was that you had bored combat pilots looking to shoot people. So… then all ended up on the same ‘side’, shooting people. They went from competition, to a more… whaling model. Or, if you prefer, trawling: the supply of ‘fish’ seemed endless, so they didn’t need to care about sustainability. And that breeds ecosystem collapse. Given time, it’ll re-balance, but that’ll probably mean near total depopulation of HS first as the predators (wardeccers) kill off the herbivores (PvErs) and then starve. > [@](#): > > I mentioned the Tech imbalance as an after thought because if that had not existed it is likely that we would still be using SBU’s in nullsec… That’s doubtful. The Technetium imbalance was largely addressed with the addition of Alchemy to replace Tech with other moongoo in industry. That’s part of why we hit Fountain in 2013, to offset the loss of income. The change from Dominion to Aegis was about shrinking footprints and opening space up for new groups to move in. The rental empire model, which is still in use in some areas, provides the biggest impediment to that now—though some parts of the map are opening up. The other aim of Aegis, to break up the big blocs… well, that’s been far less successful, in part because of how successful the ‘if you really _use_ your space, it’s safer’ model works. But there’ll be more said on that and Aegis sov soon… elsewhere. \>.\> ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2729 "2018-10-13T15:59:06Z")
Do you know how Pirat is structured? Did you know that the war machine within Pirat is completely self-sustaining (assuming we fulfill our obligations). Let me elaborate: We have monthly defense contracts that pay for almost all of not all of our weekly war bills. We also own no structures that the individual you are referring to could have dumped ISK into for infrastructure. YOU have no way of knowing where his ISK went and any assumption is just attempting to witch hunt. I don’t like botters just like everyone else, so your attempt to cast Pirat in some pro-botting light or at least try to say we’re complicit in it is a joke. So those handful of defense contracts pay for like everything. The other day we were paid 15b to defend 3 structure timers in an hour time frame. That 15b was evenly split between each person involved in the op. So I walked away with an easy 15b. Ship losses are SRPd out of the same wallet that pays for wars. Self-sustaining. There absolutely no reason for a botter to inject ISK into a Wardec alliance that is hand over fist profitable on its own. ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2730 "2018-10-13T15:59:44Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > The issue as I keep pointing out is that the defenders are too outclassed to even bother trying which is why the propaganda structure which controls the war dec is so key, it creates a strategic weakness that can be exploited. That is what is needed in hisec period. And that is the point I keep making. How does that create a strategic weakness to the massive outclassed small and new corps of highsec? If they can’t defend their own stuff, what makes you think they can organize to defeat the current power blocs of highsec? I mean, I’m not against people having more stuff in space they have to defend, including wardeccers, but I honestly don’t see how a propaganda structures does anything for the large number of corps that don’t log in when they are under a war. I think indeed this thread has spiraled off into irrelevance. Everything that can be said has been and I’ll let it be now and wait for some developments on the issue. Eve Vegas is just around the corner after all. ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2731 "2018-10-13T16:01:38Z")
That’s because this change isn’t aimed at the smaller, weaker corps that want to push off war dec groups. It’s aimed at the large blocs that will form a fleet once a week or once a month to go shoot a billboard. It’s just under the guise of helping highsec. ---
**Author:** ![Tora\_Bushido](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tora_bushido/32/382053_2.png) [@Tora\_Bushido](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tora_Bushido)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2732 "2018-10-13T16:03:48Z")
Every player that makes stupid suggestions about war decs gets a free war for more experience. Aint that nice of marmites? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2733 "2018-10-13T16:03:49Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > I don’t like botters just like everyone else, so your attempt to cast Pirat in some pro-botting light or at least try to say we’re complicit in it is a joke. Did the CEO bot, or not? > [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > That’s because this change isn’t aimed What change are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2734 "2018-10-13T16:06:58Z")
> [@Tora\_Bushido](#): > > Every player that makes stupid suggestions about war decs gets a free war for more experience. Aint that nice of marmites? Log on NPC corp alt everybody. 😂 ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2735 "2018-10-13T16:08:56Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > So those handful of defense contracts pay for like everything. How many of PIRAT’s current 160 wardecs are defense contracts? You said they are a handful. So what are the rest? ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2736 "2018-10-13T16:10:50Z")
Allegedly the original CEO was bottling and transferred ownership of the alliance to someone else to avoid it. I don’t personally know the original CEO as I’ve never interacted with him. The change I’m referring to is anyone thinking that their suggestion of empowering the small groups of players is going to work. While I’m not against to having structures that other players can shoot, let’s call it what it is. They just want their Nullsec groups to be able to clear out war dec groups from trade hubs. ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2737 "2018-10-13T16:11:47Z")
There are a few main contracts that pay for the bulk of the “content wars”. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2738 "2018-10-13T16:12:06Z")
Faylee of course I know how it is structured now. I am assuming that the ISK went to pay war dec fees while the self sustaining income as you refer to it went into sorting out bling ships to gain that huge advantage. It is not a joke, because why would he have done all that botting? Because of what reasons when his focus was totally on PIRAT. You are self-sustaining now, but they got to that level due to botting IMO. > [@Arrendis](#): > > The ecosystem _did_ develop to deal with war decs: a decade ago, there were pirate hunters who dealt with things like that. But—and this is a natural development that’s hard to avoid—one side got bigger than the other, and the end result was that you had bored combat pilots looking to shoot people. So… then all ended up on the same ‘side’, shooting people. > > They went from competition, to a more… whaling model. Or, if you prefer, trawling: the supply of ‘fish’ seemed endless, so they didn’t need to care about sustainability. And that breeds ecosystem collapse. Given time, it’ll re-balance, but that’ll probably mean near total depopulation of HS first as the predators (wardeccers) kill off the herbivores (PvErs) and then starve. Yes, and it is collapsing as we discuss this. > [@Arrendis](#): > > That’s doubtful. The Technetium imbalance was largely addressed with the addition of Alchemy to replace Tech with other moongoo in industry. That’s part of why we hit Fountain in 2013, to offset the loss of income. The change from Dominion to Aegis was about shrinking footprints and opening space up for new groups to move in. The rental empire model, which is still in use in some areas, provides the biggest impediment to that now—though some parts of the map are opening up. > > The other aim of Aegis, to break up the big blocs… well, that’s been far less successful, in part because of how successful the ‘if you really _use_ your space, it’s safer’ model works. But there’ll be more said on that and Aegis sov soon… elsewhere. \>.\> The thing is that you ended up with massive war chests, the ability to buy supers and titans, alliances that were good such as Nulli Secunda and -A- could not compete and therefore died. Making it even more likely. I watched this happen. I believe that had this tech imbalance not existed then we might not be where we are now in terms of nullsec. But anyway that is not a debate to have here even if it is an immensely interesting one. > [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > How does that create a strategic weakness to the massive outclassed small and new corps of highsec? If they can’t defend their own stuff, what makes you think they can organize to defeat the current power blocs of highsec? I am hoping to help that along, with a few others of course, but without the Propaganda structure it is not even worth trying. I won’t. > [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > That’s because this change isn’t aimed at the smaller, weaker corps that want to push off war dec groups. It’s aimed at the large blocs that will form a fleet once a week or once a month to go shoot a billboard. It’s just under the guise of helping highsec. It is aimed at both hisec to develop and for nullsec to give a damn to go and slap them every so often. It is content. > [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > The change I’m referring to is anyone thinking that their suggestion of empowering the small groups of players is going to work. While I’m not against to having structures that other players can shoot, let’s call it what it is. They just want their Nullsec groups to be able to clear out war dec groups from trade hubs. This will be an impact from the change, but as Arrendis earlier in this thread said it will not be a major focus of most nullsec alliances, it will happen of course, and some might just create a hisec war dec arm for content. Anyway it is all content, you want fights don’t you? > [@Tora\_Bushido](#): > > Every player that makes stupid suggestions about war decs gets a free war for more experience. Aint that nice of marmites? You want people to log off? 😛🍿 I am debating pushing for my alliance to develop a war dec arm, so if you do then It will actually help me…, but so far no war dec from Marmite so I take it that my suggestions are not stupid…, at least in your eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2739 "2018-10-13T16:15:24Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > Allegedly the original CEO was bottling and transferred ownership of the alliance to someone else to avoid it. What is your position currently in PIRAT? > [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > The change I’m referring to is anyone thinking that their suggestion of empowering the small groups of players is going to work… They just want their Nullsec groups to be able to clear out war dec groups from trade hubs. In so far as the Social Corp idea, I agree. > [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > There are a few main contracts that pay for the bulk of the “content wars”. How do you then defend PIRAT, as an alliance of only 240 members, having 160 wardecs open, which cause players to logoff and never return? ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2740 "2018-10-13T16:18:47Z")
You are making wild assumptions. Groups like Pirat and Marmite have been around forever. They are well-known and reputable groups that have had working business models to bring them thus far. How do you know the dude wasn’t botting for RMT or to supply Nullsec alliance alts with supers and titans? Also Pirat doesn’t pay for people’s ships. They reimburse losses when they happen. Pirat isn’t going to go buy me a Proteus or a Machariel if I want one. That’s up to the member to get. I agree content is content and I’m all for it. It’s just humorous to see all the suggestions and rallying against wars on multiple platforms of discussion where it’s nullsdc guys pretending to give a damn about highsec, when it’s really all about them. Not necessarilly saying that about you… it’s just an observation. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2741 "2018-10-13T16:23:57Z")
> [@Tora\_Bushido](#): > > Every player that makes stupid suggestions about war decs gets a free war for more experience. But you just _started_ a war with us last month! ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2742 "2018-10-13T16:28:50Z")
I am a normal member in Pirat. I came with VMG when they merged. Highsec wars are almost all guerilla warfare right now. The only exception are structure timers where you can force a fight. There’s a big difference in how wars are fought between other mercs and your regular joes we catch flying around trade hubs and such. It’s a lot of baiting, counter-baiting, honeypotting, and just general hit and run type stuff. The best example of “beating us” that I can give is Black Legion. They are doing a great job of spanking us right now. They are single handedly proving everyone here wrong as a matter of fact. Granted they are devoting time and effort, but their rewards are well-deserved. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=134) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=136)