# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Norian\_Rever](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/norian_rever/32/99362_2.png) [@Norian\_Rever](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Norian_Rever)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/261 "2018-10-03T13:03:24Z")
> [@Engelious\_Angelion](#): > > i u whant a thread about no CSM go make it. i partly agree its not the best system, but this aint the place to debate it. Topic is CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes. Thanks for the ■■■■■■■ food recipe. Good job. ---
**Author:** ![Sakura\_Hoshizora](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sakura_hoshizora/32/207431_2.png) [@Sakura\_Hoshizora](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sakura_Hoshizora)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/262 "2018-10-03T13:05:48Z")
Easy solution to neutral Logi in HS wars: Neutral Logi gets concorded off the field in seconds (regardless of 1.0 or 0.5), if they intervene in a fight. ---
**Author:** ![Norian\_Rever](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/norian_rever/32/99362_2.png) [@Norian\_Rever](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Norian_Rever)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/263 "2018-10-03T13:06:19Z")
> [@Steve\_Ronuken](#): > > My point is, they tend to care about more than just their little corner. Did you discuss a term limit for CSM? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Ronuken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/steve_ronuken/32/373894_2.png) [@Steve\_Ronuken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Steve_Ronuken)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/264 "2018-10-03T13:09:32Z")
Did you bother to read the minutes you’re complaining about? Nope, you didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Norian\_Rever](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/norian_rever/32/99362_2.png) [@Norian\_Rever](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Norian_Rever)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/265 "2018-10-03T13:10:35Z")
> [@Steve\_Ronuken](#): > > Nope, you didn’t. You didnt answer the question. Im a potential voter. Answer the question. Did you discuss a CSM term limit? ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/266 "2018-10-03T13:11:28Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > Can I quote you on that? Something the CSM should also note about hisec! Absolutely, I have been saying it for along time and have also said that If/when the changes come in that any limitations or increase in costs will just turn merc’s into ganker’s. Honestly I don’t think there is a _ **fix** _ that works because you have one side who want to fight and the other who wont & don’t no matter what change. CCP has thrown tons of ways to survive in high sec to players (cloaky warp, stabs, lower scan res, hic changes, watchlist change, citadel safety) yet because people still die the systems ‘broken’. One of the main reasons I stopped playing (other then not able to hunt effectively) is because even with all the wars the active war targets is so dry in high sec and by far the worst i’ve seen it in years. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Ronuken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/steve_ronuken/32/373894_2.png) [@Steve\_Ronuken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Steve_Ronuken)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/267 "2018-10-03T13:12:31Z")
I’ve been talking about war decs for years. I’ve had a suggested solution up for three years. It’s all about getting CCP to agree that they need to look at it, and have the time to do so. ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/268 "2018-10-03T13:16:47Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > They are only easy pickings because they make themselves it, dying to war dec’s is **completely** avoidable. Avoidable? Yes, because: > [@Steve\_Ronuken](#): > > …the most effective counterplay to them is ‘don’t log on’ or ‘leave your corp’. But that is hardly engaging gameplay now is it? > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > We take fights but null sec alliances tend to take the wrong approach to getting a fight, usually they fill the system with 60 reds and sit in local shouting “fight me broz” when were 9 players with like 20 characters. Wait… you declare war and then complain that they brought too much to fight you? IMHO if that happens the war should be over as you have capitulated and therefore lost. ---
**Author:** ![Norian\_Rever](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/norian_rever/32/99362_2.png) [@Norian\_Rever](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Norian_Rever)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/269 "2018-10-03T13:21:39Z")
> CCP asks which EVE Online websites the CSM use, which is mostly the recruitment page and the account management. Nice way to avoid answering they dont read/post here, but on reddit, if even there. Also, why the hell are CSM using “mostly” the recruitment page this often? For those fat recruitment bonuses to line your wallets, and for the Corps/Alliances you represent? ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/270 "2018-10-03T13:21:41Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > Honestly I don’t think there is a _ **fix** _ that works because you have one side who want to fight and the other who wont & don’t no matter what change. I think you still miss the point of view of the defender, it was the case in the war dec discord, I would say what value is there to fight, if you do you get war decs from others desperate for content. That is why I suggested that the change needed is to enable the defenders to gang up effectively, and being able to rep each other against an aggressor is one key element. > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > CCP has thrown tons of ways to survive in high sec to players (cloaky warp, stabs, lower scan res, hic changes, watchlist change, citadel safety) yet because people still die the systems ‘broken’. You need to step back from pipe hunting, and look at more in your face conflict as being desirable, your list is avoidance for pipe hunting. I am not trying to be insulting, but note what you focussed on there. The Watchlist changes was because people could see what was logged in waiting and stopped battles in nullsec, but in itself it was too powerful especially with the API tools that war deckers created for war decs. I better stop now as I do not want to clutter up this thread with my posts. ---
**Author:** ![Norian\_Rever](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/norian_rever/32/99362_2.png) [@Norian\_Rever](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Norian_Rever)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/271 "2018-10-03T13:25:29Z")
@Steve_Ronuken You have still not answered if you discussed a CSM term limit. Did you or did you not. ---
**Author:** ![darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darkestkhan_eriker/32/390091_2.png) [@darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/darkestkhan_Eriker)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/272 "2018-10-03T13:33:30Z")
> [@Tora\_Bushido](#): > > And introduce corps that cant be war decced like NPC, but can function as a normal corp. Of course with many restrictions (no structures, max number of players, etc). I would add some more : no war declarations and no joining allies,and change of corp status taking at least 14 days. Also a delay for corp dropping taking effect of at least 72h. [and no joining other corp for another 168h]. ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/273 "2018-10-03T13:37:35Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > You need to step back from pipe hunting, and look at more in your face conflict as being desirable, your list is avoidance for pipe hunting. I am not trying to be insulting, but note what you focussed on there. The Watchlist changes was because people could see what was logged in waiting and stopped battles in nullsec, but in itself it was too powerful especially with the API tools that war deckers created for war decs. Pipe hunting/station camping is the issue, its been said many many times that the core issue is people having 100+ war decs and farming players / newbies (player retention argument) hence you wanting to limit amount of wars. What i’m pointing out is that these are avoidable but still players warp freighters to gates and complain they died. You will not get face conflict, a miner isn’t suddenly going to go “You know what… them war mechanic changes… ill have abit of that”. This hasn’t even touched on the issue that CEO’s are not preparing members for wars, not advising them and just leaving them to fend for themselves or take the log off approach. Pretty sure most intel I get from Eve Skunk has “If you die to war decs your an idiot and will be kicked” Most of the player base has no interest in war mechanics and very much imply it doesn’t effect them but are quick enough to jump on the ‘war system broken’ band wagon. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/274 "2018-10-03T13:42:39Z")
Corret me if I’m wrong in this maddness but if you were a developer and have ingame mechanis that is unhealthy and is droping players rather than encourage them to play wouldn’t you change it asap. I don’t even mention revenue drops because it is obvious. Maybe I didn’t see that behind minutes and CCP is so swamped with citadels that have no time to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Tink\_Pickles](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tink_pickles/32/90079_2.png) [@Tink\_Pickles](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tink_Pickles)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/275 "2018-10-03T13:43:22Z")
Well, one way to deal with bounties would be to put some or all of the low and nullsec combat anomalies behind acceleration gates and lock out carriers. Capitals can go belt rat or run incursions instead. Also, if you really want to start killing off supers, I suggest creating abyssal content for them. The abyss killed mountains of expensive cruisers, no doubt it can accomplish the same result against capitals. A big bonus from doing it this way would be that it would be a lot harder for people to script a bot that can reliably run randomised abyssal content than running anomalies. ---
**Author:** ![Stragak](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stragak/32/132931_2.png) [@Stragak](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Stragak)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/276 "2018-10-03T13:48:02Z")
I am not so sure about this this side from 2013. No body wants to be a sore loser and can cite whatever they want. Personally I do know several in fact recently in which a coworker did the tutorial though I told them not too. They died, respawned, logged out for it is was dis-settling. it should happen in time took like a week for me to grow in love with eve before I died the first time. After having 2-3 trial accounts before hand in which I died and walked away from after the two weeks for the account already felt disposable. ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/277 "2018-10-03T13:48:43Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > these are avoidable but still players warp freighters to gates and complain they died. Avoidable by not logging in. What other options does a freighter pilot have appart from logging off for a week and hoping the war isn’t extended? > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > This hasn’t even touched on the issue that CEO’s are not preparing members for wars, not advising them and just leaving them to fend for themselves or take the log off approach. Again, I’m genuinely curious, if you were a corp CEO how would you “prepare” your members for a war dec? ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/278 "2018-10-03T13:50:56Z")
> [@Norian\_Rever](#): > > Great. > > CSM and CCP exchanging recipes at Summit. > > Totally worth it. You seem upset. ---
**Author:** ![darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darkestkhan_eriker/32/390091_2.png) [@darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/darkestkhan_Eriker)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/279 "2018-10-03T13:51:39Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > You seem upset. It is Salvos, what did you expect? He is always upset. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/280 "2018-10-03T13:52:54Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > Most of the player base has no interest in war mechanics and very much imply it doesn’t effect them but are quick enough to jump on the ‘war system broken’ band wagon. > CCP Larrikin pulls up activity data for players of corporations that have wars declared against them and it shows considerable activity drops in all activities during the war. They also show that the low activity continues after the war ends. Brisc Rubal noted that the numbers here were so stark, it would justify immediately removing war decs as a mechanic and promising a fix after the fact. The CSM in general were surprised at how stark the numbers were and noted it was clear this mechanic was having a significant impact on player recruitment and retention. I think that this is the issue, though CCP has to be careful in terms of working out just what that player base is. But people like me have known that this was the case for a long time. > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > Pipe hunting/station camping is the issue, its been said many many times that the core issue is people having 100+ war decs and farming players / newbies (player retention argument) hence you wanting to limit amount of wars. What i’m pointing out is that these are avoidable but still players warp freighters to gates and complain they died. Yes, the blanket war decs are an issue, I want to still allow them but the real balance is that you have to war dec nullsec entities to get enough passing trade and that is why I wanted to put skin in the game for the war decs, so it was a tough decision on who you decided to war dec for passing content. As for warping the freighter to gates, I have come across a very good player who missed that there was a hisec war and only noticed it in his JF when he saw flashy reds in Amarr, I had to go get his JF for him. The freighter pilots in the main have no other option than not logging in for a week or dropping corp. > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > You will not get face conflict, a miner isn’t suddenly going to go “You know what… them war mechanic changes… ill have abit of that”. I saw that attitude in 2009 to around 2012 and then it stopped and turned into what we have now. People did do that, I remember the first corp I joined and we got a war dec and all the players jumped into BS’s and went out for a fight. > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > This hasn’t even touched on the issue that CEO’s are not preparing members for wars, not advising them and just leaving them to fend for themselves or take the log off approach. Pretty sure most intel I get from Eve Skunk has “If you die to war decs your an idiot and will be kicked” What I want to see is people getting together with others and say, lets have fun with this and feel that they have a chance to have fun with it which is why I made my suggestions. But it has to be fun for you guys too. What if the one or two people in each corp you war decked that wanted to fight could effectively join up with others war decked by you and do a purple fleet against you more easily? Such as rep each other and have something to shoot to get back at you. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=13) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=15)