# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 141
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 12:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2843 "2018-10-14T12:32:37Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > There is no relevant difference between wardec immunity bought by % NPC tax sunk on earnings, or paying an isk fee per week for immunity. There is a difference. Monopoly has a square that reads “Income Tax - Pay 10% or $200” which is relevant here. A social corporation with experienced players who run level 4’s might have no problem paying a fixed fee, where a social corporation that has a majority of its members mining ore in ventures will struggle to achieve the same liquid ISK generation. A percentage will always be affordable and it scales much better than a flat fee, not to mention it doesn’t introduce any additional mechanics. ---
**Author:** ![Yiole\_Gionglao](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yiole_gionglao/32/516090_2.png) [@Yiole\_Gionglao](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yiole_Gionglao)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 12:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2844 "2018-10-14T12:35:17Z")
Let’'s just agree to disagree. 🤷‍♀️ ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 12:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2845 "2018-10-14T12:37:50Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > A social corporation with experienced players who run level 4’s might have no problem paying a fixed fee, where a social corporation that has a majority of its members mining ore in ventures will struggle to achieve the same liquid ISK generation. You are confused now. The Social Corp and Wardec Immunity Cost ideas are separate and antagonistic. The Social Corp idea means a Social Corp cant own structures, and cant be wardecced, thus obviating the need for an immunity fee (indirectly paid via NPC tax %) The Wardec Immunity Cost idea would mean you pay the same for immunity to CONCORD as a Player Corp, as it would cost for another Player Corp to wardec you via payment to CONCORD. See the difference? You muddled the two together. ---
**Author:** ![Yiole\_Gionglao](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yiole_gionglao/32/516090_2.png) [@Yiole\_Gionglao](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yiole_Gionglao)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 12:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2846 "2018-10-14T12:38:34Z")
That will be useful to know if I come back to sue those sytems. I found out that tethering was very useful to repair my mission running ship & drones but as far as figuring what to do where, it felt a bit like the defunct Industry Teams mechanic (does somebody else remember them?), too many choices just spoil the decission making. 😄 ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 12:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2847 "2018-10-14T12:45:35Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > If a NPC Corp or Social Corp pays 11% of their income for immunity as sunk in tax, that is no different than a Player Corp paying the same fee in isk as it would cost to wardec them, for immunity. Not if a player corporation owns a structure with strategic value. Take moons. What if a player corporation had a sweet moon ? They’d be able to hold onto it indefinitely for a mere 50 million, no matter how many others might wish to have it instead. Markets would be the same. PanFam has a number of market citadels up, if they wanted to clear everyone else out and be the only market in town, they couldn’t under your proposal due to every competing citadel being owned by a 1 man player corporation. They’d be laughing all day long as they handed over 50 million a week in protection money to concord, whilst earning bank in passive income as a trade hub. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 12:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2848 "2018-10-14T12:47:27Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > A percentage will always be affordable and it scales much better than a flat fee This is mathematically false and you are confused, again. A Social Corp of 50 members actively running L4s will pay FAR more in taxes, at 11%, than paying a flat 50mil fee for immunity a week. You are utterly wrong. > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > not to mention it doesn’t introduce any additional mechanics. Again, factually and utterly false. It would introduce a new mechanic where a Player Corp can pay for wardec immunity, at the same rate it would cost to wardec them by another Player Corp. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 12:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2849 "2018-10-14T12:54:18Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > A 10man Player Corp of mostly PvE players, will never be able to defend their structure against for example PIRAT, no matter what they do, or how they prepare, unless somekind of wardec immunity system is put in place. No, but there are groups who might be able to defend against PIRAT who could make ISK knowing there would be a market of “Social Corporations” wanting corporate offices they’re unable to obtain elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 12:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2850 "2018-10-14T12:56:12Z")
The Social Corp idea, means a 50member L4 Mission Runner Social Corp, would pay 11% constantly for wardec immunity, from its bounty income. Whereas a 50member Mining Social Corp would pay almost zero tax, as they dont generate isk. How is that fair? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 12:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2851 "2018-10-14T12:56:28Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Structure clutter has zero effect on anything in HS. Both CCP and players have indicated, in the 2 years since Citadels were released, that the opposite is the case. “Structure spam” as they term it, is a significant and recognized issue. In just this latest summit, the issue was raised by the CSM (p35 of the minutes, the last paragraph of the ‘Upwell Structures’ section). In this context, the CSM were referring to ‘medium Upwell structures’, ie: Astrahusen, Raitaru, and Athanors. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 12:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2852 "2018-10-14T12:59:15Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > No, but there are groups who might be able to defend against PIRAT who could make ISK knowing there would be a market of “Social Corporations” wanting corporate offices they’re unable to obtain elsewhere. How is a new 10member Player Corp going to be able to afford to pay a group to defend them against PIRAT? It would be MUCH more than the 50mil I propose for immunity, as equal to the cost to wardec them. > [@Arrendis](#): > > In just this latest summit, the issue was raised by the CSM (p35 of the minutes, the last paragraph of the ‘Upwell Structures’ section). In this context, the CSM were referring to ‘medium Upwell structures’, ie: Astrahusen, Raitaru, and Athanors. Quote it for us to see. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 1:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2853 "2018-10-14T13:02:38Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Quote it for us to see. Sure. > Sort Dragon goes on to say that the medium Upwell structures should have shorter timers as they are too spammable. CCP Masterplan asks if the CSM thinks this issue is more strongly connected to them being too cheap or too difficult to get rid of, the CSM says both. He goes on to ask if making them easier to kill would be an option which the CSM feels is an option. Brisc Rubal says that it is important to find a distinction between legit citadels and spam citadels. An increased incentive to kill medium structures was brought up. While the words ‘highsec’ are not used here, the issue is one that has been recognized in _all_ regions of space. As a result, I wouldn’t expect CCP or the CSM to make much distinction about one location or another when discussing how to mitigate the problem. If anything, the lack of any qualifiers such as ‘lowsec’ or ‘nullsec’ should be taken as evidence that this is _not_ a zone-specific issue. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 1:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2854 "2018-10-14T13:05:44Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Its an investment that costs isk. So is a ship. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > If 50mil is fair to wardec a 10man Corp, its fair a 10man Corp can pay 50mil not to be warded. How is this fair when a 10 person player corporation owns 100 structures and another player corporation of 10 people only has 1 structure? They’d both pay 50 million but one corporation gets 99 more unkillable structures. Structures must always have a viable means of contestation, even now there are problems with structures being time zone tanked to come out 9 am of a Monday morning or other known times where playing eve gives way to real life. Structure ownership and immunity should be mutually exclusive at all times. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > If its good for the goose, its good for the gander. No, you’re effectively proposing another timer to all HS structures - the “Pay Concord” timer which might as well be a throwback to the old POS mechanic of racially specific anchoring permits CCP did away with. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 1:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2855 "2018-10-14T13:06:26Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > While the words ‘highsec’ are not used here, the issue is one that has been recognized in _all_ regions of space. No mention of HS Citadel proliferation or it being in context. It doesnt matter in any negative sense how many Citadels there are in HS, as I explained earlier. Infact, as I explained earlier, the more Citadels there are in HS, the greater economic opportunity there is to trade between them at favorable rates. ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 1:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2856 "2018-10-14T13:07:32Z")
That’s your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 1:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2857 "2018-10-14T13:07:34Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > No mention of HS Citadel proliferation or it being in context. And again: > [@Arrendis](#): > > While the words ‘highsec’ are not used here, the issue is one that has been recognized in _all_ regions of space. As a result, I wouldn’t expect CCP or the CSM to make much distinction about one location or another when discussing how to mitigate the problem. If anything, the lack of any qualifiers such as ‘lowsec’ or ‘nullsec’ should be taken as evidence that this is _not_ a zone-specific issue. You are demanding that CCP and the CSM mention a specific context before it can be considered to be included in the scope of ‘all contexts’. It’s more likely, when people discuss issues in broad context, that they will specify _exceptions_, if they exist, rather than listing them all out. For example, if someone asks how you’re feeling, do you give them a run-down of every health issue you don’t think you currently suffer from? ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 1:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2858 "2018-10-14T13:09:29Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > It can be difficult to wrap ones head around, but it really doesnt matter if there are 10, 100 or 1000 Citadels in any specific HS system. Oh yes it will. 1000 structures could take a long time to scroll through to find the one you want. Imagine the amount of blue diamond spam on the overview. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 1:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2859 "2018-10-14T13:10:21Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > How is this fair when a 10 person player corporation owns 100 structures and another player corporation of 10 people only has 1 structure? They’d both pay 50 million but one corporation gets 99 more unkillable structures. Thats a factor of the current wardec costs, which are ass-backwards and utterly insane, so it costs a 2000 member Corp only 50mil to wardec a 10 member Corp, whereas it costs that 10 member Corp 500mil to dec the 2000 member Corp. Number and type of existing structures can be included into the wardec cost, and cost of immunity. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 1:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2860 "2018-10-14T13:11:34Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Number and type of existing structures can be included into the wardec cost, and cost of immunity. Ah, so I can find out how many structures and what type they are by attempting to wardec a hostile alliance? Now _that_ would be an interesting intelligence tool. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 1:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2861 "2018-10-14T13:12:36Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > A Citadel in HS, does not threaten or harm anyone else, in any real sense. Bollocks. Ever heard of the system cost index? That little mechanic that makes it more expensive to build stuff as the volume of production increases? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2018, 1:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2862 "2018-10-14T13:12:38Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > > > Number and type of existing structures can be included into the wardec cost, and cost of immunity. > > Ah, so I can find out how many structures and what type they are by attempting to wardec a hostile alliance? Now _that_ would be an interesting intelligence tool. Sure. Why not, but only HS structures. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=140) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=142)