# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 150
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3026 "2018-10-15T16:52:36Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Social Corps dont keep people out of LS/NS/WHs. > Anyone can go there. > All they have to do, to do so, is leave the Social Corp. Why should they have to? See, this is what I meany by introducing new impediments to retention. If you introduce a new mechanic to keep people in the game, you should avoid saying ‘And we’ll make it HARDER for those players to do stuff’. Doing that? It makes people **quit**. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3027 "2018-10-15T16:54:40Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Doing that? It makes people **quit**. How will Social Corps of HS PvE friends with their own tag, without wardecs, that cant enter LS/NS/WH, and mechanics that cant be abused to form a Suicide Gank Social Corp, make people **quit**? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 4:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3028 "2018-10-15T16:59:25Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > How will Social Corps of HS PvE friends with their own tag, without wardecs, that cant enter LS/NS/WH, and mechanics that cant be abused to form a Suicide Gank Social Corp, make people **quit**? Because when they want to go and explore new areas of the game, they can’t. They have to give up their friends, their shared identity. They have to make the choice of ‘do I explore the game, or do I stick with my friends?’ And that’s a choice that people tend to resent, especially because _it serves no purpose_. There is no _gain_ from that restriction. That restriction does not _help_ anything. It does not provide any benefit whatsoever. What is _gained_ by restricting Social Corps to HS? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3029 "2018-10-15T17:01:33Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Because when they want to go and explore new areas of the game, they can’t. They have to give up their friends, their shared identity. No. They can turn into a Player Corp instead. LS/NS/WH have no need of Social Corps. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3030 "2018-10-15T17:01:35Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Social Corps dont keep people out of LS/NS/WHs. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > All they have to do, to do so, is leave the Social Corp. :facepalm: ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3031 "2018-10-15T17:02:41Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > that a group of friends, or a solo player, can PvE together in HS, without wardecs, with their own Corp tag and identity. Most people starting EvE are individuals trying it out, not groups of friends. Telling new players they can be safe from one element of the game, but are then locked out of 90% of activities is just bad. Telling them they have to leave the group they joined if they want to try those things is just worse. Also why on Earth would a solo player want a corp for themselves over just staying under thd radar in an NPC corp? On top of this, why would we want a corp that allows for mining and mission farming in hisec in perfect safety other than from ganking? It is a flawed idea. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3032 "2018-10-15T17:07:51Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > No. > They can turn into a Player Corp instead. > > LS/NS/WH have no need of Social Corps. Please answer the question: > [@Arrendis](#): > > What is _gained_ by restricting Social Corps to HS? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3033 "2018-10-15T17:09:45Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > What is _gained_ by restricting Social Corps to HS? That which it was intended to do. So small friend groups or solo HS PvErs can do their thing in a Social Corp without wardecs. This to prevent them leaving during wardecs and never returning. That was the idea and point all along. That, and only that. A Social Corp, as providing wardec immunity in HS, is pointless in LS/NS/WH where wardecs dont matter. Now my question to you: Do you think Suicide Gankers should be able to form unwardeccable Social Corps in HS, which they can scout, gate sit, bump, suicide gank and retrieve loot with? ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3034 "2018-10-15T17:13:10Z")
He won’t He can’t It would prove him wrong (again). That’s his M.O. Deflecting and going all over the place because he doesn’t want to be proven wrong ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3035 "2018-10-15T17:14:29Z")
Because you prevent a social corporation organically growing into something more by preventing the opportunity to try new areas/rules/concepts unless they, as the entire group, do it themselves. Unless you are a group composed of yourself and alts, a social corporation will be comprised of individuals that have different risk levels. It will be these more adventuresome people that will want to branch out and try new stuff in EVE. Your rules would force them to leave their group of friends, force them to go solo, return back to the “friendless npc corp”, or join some larger group of established lower sec players, ALL WHILE ABANDONING THEIR SOCIAL GROUP. Instead of having the adventuresome player slowly encourage and lead his social group into other areas of EVE, you are making him cut his ties, jeopardizing losing the first group (If the leaving player was leader/alpha) to boredom/lack of drive or, and just as likely than not, the new solo player joins a group of strangers that somehow through their actions, sours his experience outside his former group. All runs against what social corps are trying to do, establish a solid base so that a certain percentage will eventually become longer advanced paying players. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3036 "2018-10-15T17:19:45Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > That which it was intended to do. > So small friend groups or solo HS PvErs can do their thing in a Social Corp without wardecs. > This to prevent them leaving during wardecs and never returning. > That was the idea and point all along. > That, and only that. How is this gained by restricting Social Corps to HS, but not gained if they’re _not_ restricted to HS? > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Do you think Suicide Gankers should be able to form unwardeccable Social Corps in HS, which they can scout, gate sit, bump, suicide gank and retrieve loot with? Considering they can, and do, currently do all of that in NPC corps, I see no benefit in restricting them from doing it in Social Corps. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3037 "2018-10-15T17:21:33Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Considering they can, and do, currently do all of that in NPC corps, I see no benefit in restricting them from doing it in Social Corps. Jesus… The agenda is real, and really doesnt care about balance or the good of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3038 "2018-10-15T17:22:34Z")
Please answer the question. And while you’re at it, answer this one, too: What benefit is _gained_ by restricting gankers from doing everything they can do in an undeccable NPC corp, in a social corp? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3039 "2018-10-15T17:23:29Z")
Send my love to Miniluv. You’ve made your agenda very clear. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3040 "2018-10-15T17:25:23Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > You’ve made your agenda very clear. Yes, I have: > [@Arrendis](#): > > I will not let the matter go. I will continue to demand that you are accountable for your statements and your lies. _I enjoy being a pedantic jerk_ , and I so rarely get to indulge myself to the degree that I’d like. My agenda is to get an answer to those two questions. So: > [@Arrendis](#): > > How is this gained by restricting Social Corps to HS, but not gained if they’re _not_ restricted to HS? and > [@Arrendis](#): > > What benefit is _gained_ by restricting gankers from doing everything they can do in an undeccable NPC corp, in a social corp? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3041 "2018-10-15T17:29:05Z")
You want wardec immune Social Corps for HS Suicide Gankers to utilize and exploit. You want wardec immune Social Corps for LS/NS/WH interests to utilize and exploit. You want that all, despite Social Corps was intended only for HS small groups of players or soloers to have their own Corp identity and be wardec immune, while they PvE. That, so they dont log off when wardecced and never return. You are trying to pervert the entire purpose, and ride your own interests in on its coat-tails. Its disgusting and blatantly obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3042 "2018-10-15T17:32:18Z")
Actually, my impression is that you are putting too many restrictions that are both unneeded and defeats the reason for having social corps added to the game. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3043 "2018-10-15T17:32:32Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Social Corps was intended only for HS small groups of players Quote req’d Also, limiting content to people is never a good idea… lmao ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3044 "2018-10-15T17:36:33Z")
Dont worry. Nobody will remember what was said here by me. You have the majority of CSM in your pocket, and CCP’s ear. I’m sure you will get it implemented exactly how you want it, no matter the cost to the rest of EVE, or complaints against it, in your own interest, as you have many times before. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3045 "2018-10-15T17:40:47Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > You want wardec immune Social Corps for HS Suicide Gankers to utilize and exploit. > > You want wardec immune Social Corps for LS/NS/WH interests to utilize and exploit. > > You want that all, despite Social Corps was intended only for HS small groups of players or soloers to have their own Corp identity and be wardec immune, while they PvE. That, so they dont log off when wardecced and never return. No, I want you to answer the questions: > [@Arrendis](#): > > > How is this gained by restricting Social Corps to HS, but not gained if they’re _not_ restricted to HS? > > and > > > What benefit is _gained_ by restricting gankers from doing everything they can do in an undeccable NPC corp, in a social corp? I answered your [questions](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2998), and was able to [provide my reasons and rationale for those answers](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3009). You then attempted to lie and [twist my words](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3011) to mean precisely the opposite of what was said. I, of course, [objected](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3012). These two questions aren’t complicated, and they aren’t unreasonable. I’m not even asking for you to explain your answers, though that would be nice. But I _am_ going to continue to ask them. And every time you run away from answering two simple, reasonable questions, you’re going to embarass yourself, and you know it. So just answer them. Save yourself the annoyance and embarassment. Deny me the perverse joy of keeping on you with them. Answer the questions. It’s just easier. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=149) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=151)