# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 156
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 6:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3146 "2018-10-16T18:33:09Z")
> [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > They have cranked open the wealth faucets, turned safety up to 11, and embraced a strategy of ‘a supercapital in every hanger’ to keep people playing the game. I think its the actual incentives building so the little guys would spend more cash on PLEX buying injectors and ISK off market. Because how else to compete? You have all those entities already in game, and what you can do in null? Or you stay high as alpha, and everybody knows how it ends. There are other things to do in game, but somehow you dont see much of those. Maybe because you have to be exotic kind of player to do those activities. Like RP or low sec exploration, or both at the same time. Low sec isnt popular anyway… ---
**Author:** ![Rivr\_Luzade](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rivr_luzade/32/311061_2.png) [@Rivr\_Luzade](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rivr_Luzade)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3147 "2018-10-16T18:43:19Z")
> [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > Maybe CCP will be able to reconcile the massive power creep of bribing veteran players with all these capital ships with the serious problem of the growing power gap between new entrants and the establishment. I do not believe this is bribing veterans. Look at CONDI. They have created over 20,000 characters since WWB (not to mention TEST or Horde) and a big chunk of the mains of those alt farms are in supers and titans now. If anything, CCP bribed newer players into catching up to veterans on an incredible fast lane … and ruined EVE in the process because the server can’t cope with this approach. ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3148 "2018-10-16T18:57:57Z")
> [@Rivr\_Luzade](#): > > I do not believe this is bribing veterans. Look at CONDI. They have created over 20,000 characters since WWB (not to mention TEST or Horde) and a big chunk of the mains of those alt farms are in supers and titans now. If anything, CCP bribed newer players into catching up to veterans on an incredible fast lane … and ruined EVE in the process because the server can’t cope with this approach. I guess that depends how you define new players and old players but yes, I agree with you that for whatever reason, CCP has indulged in massive power creep in nullsec that will likely have destabilizing, if not catastrophic repercussions on the game. Players starting today have never been farther behind or at more of a disadvantage even in an era of Alpha Clones and Skill Injectors, nor are at as much of a disadvantage if they choose to stay in highsec rather than join a nullsec group. None of this is to say that wardecs aren’t an issue, but I really don’t believe even the perfect wardec system is going to do much to increase attraction/retention rates at this point. I think the decisions of the recent past have to be paid for now, and that is going to unfortunately come with lower new entrant numbers. I hope whomever bonuses were tied to those increases in profits have collected and moved on now as the piper needs to be paid and we are headed for a downturn. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3149 "2018-10-16T19:05:27Z")
Recruiters were robbed too I think, previously the rewards were more extensive. There was more PLEX, even for smaller amount of players invited that would pay sub. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3150 "2018-10-16T19:11:37Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > Hisec is not supposed to have the same level of competitiveness By original design it is. We can argue over if giving the best of everything to null that design has now changed… But original design highsec was meant to be highly competitive. We just need to find something to compete over that doesn’t result in scorched earth, or in null being non sustainable. That could look something like social corps being a thing, but highsec structures getting times like null & bonuses like null, with the old empire permits reintroduced as a clean up method of inactive corps structures. That would result in fewer high sec structures but more value per structure. Making structure wars more a thing, but social corps allowing the non PvP people to still fly around and have fun using those structures. Only their jobs would be at risk, not their ships directly then, which means the risk is there for competing, but not the inability to undock. (Obviously also with some improvement to wars like allowing two groups at war with the same person to cross rep as if they were one war etc) ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3151 "2018-10-16T19:55:18Z")
I think it’s probably wrong to say that it was all done as some kind of bribe, though. The Rorqual changes that everyone likes to demonize were tied into the changes in boosting to remove off-grid boosts. If the Rorq’s got to be on-grid, then it needs to be able to _do_ something while it’s sitting in the belt boosting. Otherwise, there’s just no real value in sitting a 2b ISK target out there to sit still in a fleet that has minimal ability to fight back, just to provide mining boosts. And then they decided to apply normal game development processes… backwards. Instead of giving a small buff, then nudging things upward again if needed, they tried to to big, and then draw down. That, unfortunately, runs into the problem that it’s easier to give than remove. If you give your players a +1, then +1, they’re elated. It’s all bonuses. If you give them a +5, then a -2, they’ll be PISSED, because they’re just seeing the -2 off of what they _had_, however briefly. They’re not thinking ‘this is a net +3’. Like I said: people aren’t rational actors. So, really, far less of a bribe than just… utter cluelessness (despite the CSM telling them the Rorq buffs were too big) and unforeseen consequences… that everyone _else_ actually saw. ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3152 "2018-10-16T20:02:04Z")
Yes, CCP’s devs must be part centapede the number of times they’ve shot themselves in the foot… ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3153 "2018-10-16T20:11:16Z")
I like the Rorqual changes, it has produced a lot of content, the amount it mined was a bit much, but is about right now. Though you guys got a leg or two up on the rest of Eve due to that which is what some have complained about. But you were using your space properly so, there you go, in fact I rather liked seeing the Goon fleet arrive in UALX…, and that double tank for doomsday Titans in the major northern Keepstar battle was a great idea, was that you who came up with that. if it was all I can say is well played indeed. The tank on the Rorquals can be damn good, and I have no issue with that at all, had one with 3 x ASB, couldn’t kill it in time before the response fleet came in. All in all I think the game is in a better place for the Rorqual as it is. It is fun content. But yes that initial mining amount was clueless. There has been an impact on hisec of course, but to be blunt how many people want to be a sitting duck with their industrial core on, not that many hisec players in the main. I have been known to mine with an Orca when I cannot be bothered to do anything else in hisec. I know it is rubbish returns, but, I am chilling out. I would also mine in a Skiff, but would use a Procurer if under a war dec. I am a crap miner, min/max ISK per hour has never really bothered me, I just develop wealth over time. But I am incredibly off topic… ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3154 "2018-10-16T20:15:45Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Like I said: people aren’t rational actors. They are rational in this case, its +3, when before it was +5. 😂 ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3155 "2018-10-16T20:30:57Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > They are rational in this case, its +3, when before it was +5. 😂 It’s +3, where before it was +0. If a cashier gives you too much change, then catches their mistake, do you get mad at them because for a few moments there, you had an extra $5 bill? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3156 "2018-10-16T20:43:24Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > that double tank for doomsday Titans in the major northern Keepstar battle was a great idea, was that you who came up with that. That was Asher. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > The tank on the Rorquals can be damn good, and I have no issue with that at all, had one with 3 x ASB, couldn’t kill it in time before the response fleet came in. All in all I think the game is in a better place for the Rorqual as it is. It is fun content. Eh, I thing ASBs need to be buffed _slightly_ and then limited to 1/hull, at all sizes. Capitals in general need to be pretty badly overhauled, though, and specifically Faxes. Really, I think Faxes need to be split into two different types of ship. Push the mass on one of them up a bit so it can’t get into j-space, and remove a lot of the local rep ability. Make it vulnerable to subcaps that way. The other, lower the mass a little bit, bump the warp speed to 1.75 au/s, and reduce the rep bonuses. Give it the same scan resolution as a battlecruiser, and then rip the scan res bonus off the triage module. Call it a ‘Light Auxiliary’ and poof, there you go, that’s for subcaps and j-space, the Force Aux is for capital/supercapital combat. Lax’s, of course, would need new models, maybe the Gallente could just take the old Conquerable Station model, shrink it down, and use that. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3157 "2018-10-16T21:01:14Z")
That was not some error, that was perfectly rebalanced rorqual, this what we have now is NERF. 😂😉😉 ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3158 "2018-10-16T21:03:21Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > That was not some error, that was perfectly rebalanced rorqual, this what we have now is NERF. No, it wasn’t. Fozzie’s even said openly that they knew it was going to be overpowered. That’s not a nerf, that’s a correction that should never have been _needed_. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 9:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3159 "2018-10-16T21:05:09Z")
But it was needed. It was made so perfect initially for people to skill into it momentarily. Just CCP being greedy with their skill extractors/injectors. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3160 "2018-10-16T23:56:01Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > “Bumping” Social Corps are also something that will have to be addressed. You mean “Bumping” will have to be addressed, as there are plenty of bumpers that are in the existing NPC corporations already. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Permanent Green Safety is necessary to avoid their use for looting Suicide Gank related wrecks. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Sec-status to prevent pirates hiding in Social Corps. Yeah? Watch what happens if you asked for the same restriction to NPC corporation characters who presently perpetrate this behaviour? Watch the all the gankers start to whine in this thread at the prospect of being forced into pirate NPC corporations after a sec status drop where they could be freely fired upon for being repeat offenders exploiting the system. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Obviously no Corp hangars, cos NPC Corps dont have them either. Not having, and not being allowed, are two different things. Imagine the mess if every NPC corporation had an office everywhere possible. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Those things are necessary to prevent abusing the Social Corps for peripherally PvP related activities. A Social Corp should not be able, in any shape or form, to harm the activities of others. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > A legit HS Social Corp that only wants to mine, explore, mission in HS without wardecs will have no problem meeting the conditions I listed. What a load of crap. Stop trying to gimp the solution with stuff that will be annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 11:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3161 "2018-10-16T23:57:31Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > pirate NPC corporations Honestly, pirate NPC corps would be amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 12:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3162 "2018-10-17T00:11:21Z")
> [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](#): > > If Salvos is advocating for Green Safety for Social Corps. > > I agree with him. > > Want to be able to shoot people? Rank up. Rank Up? With that mentality it should be no issue to apply the same mechanic to existing NPC corporation members. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 12:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3163 "2018-10-17T00:23:48Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > They could still operate in 0.7-0.5 systems as per now, but would need to take precautions exactly as now. That might not be so bad if it weren’t for the fact that a lot of level 1 missions, even in the NPE, force you to go to 0.7-0.5 systems. Traveling from Amarr to Jita forces traversal of at least one 0.5 system, which is just a recipe for the old situation where every new character was Caldari, because their stats were better, except this time split between which market is better. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 12:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3164 "2018-10-17T00:26:59Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > The student challenges the teacher. You are not helping this thread one bit. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 12:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3165 "2018-10-17T00:29:15Z")
> [@ISD\_Dorrim\_Barstorlode](#): > > Removed some off topic posts. Keep it civil and on topic. Thank you. Are you sure? Proteus Onzo is still commenting… [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=155) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=157)