# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 157
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 12:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3166 "2018-10-17T00:41:56Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Do you think Suicide Gankers should be able to form unwardeccable Social Corps in HS, which they can scout, gate sit, bump, suicide gank and retrieve loot with? I don’t think Suicide Gankers should be un-war-decable either. That suicide gankers are able to stay in the default NPC corporations with criminal security standings is incongruent with the status of the NPC non-criminal NPC corporations. Players with low security standings should be placed in NPC pirate corporations in line with their criminal status until such time their status improves. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 12:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3167 "2018-10-17T00:46:37Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Watch the all the gankers start to whine in this thread at the prospect of being forced into pirate NPC corporations after a sec status drop where they could be freely fired upon for being repeat offenders exploiting the system. 🙄 Whatever would gankers do if they were global targets. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 12:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3168 "2018-10-17T00:47:53Z")
That is kinda irrelevant given they can be shot without a wardec if they are the sort that gets neg sec status. All that would do is punish the person who drops to -0.1 from a lowsec roam. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3169 "2018-10-17T00:53:50Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > A week is enough time to go and get involved in something else, and that—getting involved in something else—is the most damaging part. People are creatures of habit. They stick with their routine. That’s right. I got tired of reading Proteus drivel and played “Papers Please” instead for a few days instead. If it weren’t for the fact the war declarations could be a watershed decision for EvE I’d probably not have bothered reopening the forum. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 1:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3170 "2018-10-17T01:03:06Z")
I’m currently going through the NPE on a new character to check out what CCP has first done. I’ve lost two ships to missions ( blow up a structure, and fight outnumbered ) and each loss was something I had to do, I didn’t want to do. Its only better than the old NPE in that you don’t have to get podded anymore as part of the process, but I don’t like that by “doing what I’m told” I am inconvenienced with having to loose a vessel. > [@Buoytender\_Bob](#): > > All new players should be forced to completely finish the NPE and then are put in a 2-4 week PvP NPC corp along the lines of RvB and where their personal losses are either limited or reimbursed by the npc corporation. Have the missions they have be against other players in equal type ships: 1 vs 1, 3 vs 3,etc. Teach them that everyone loses ships, that joining up with strangers isn’t always bad, perhaps have e-uni type of players circulating through the missions offering advice. CCP tried to do this with RW, but made it optional and for poor reward. Sorry, people are douchebags and if the ships were handed out for free I’d self destruct them to skip past so I could move on from forced PvP onto what I’d prefer to be doing. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 1:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3171 "2018-10-17T01:06:02Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > The propaganda structure which when blown up will end the war dec will do just that. No it won’t. Push esc, log off. Open Steam. Play Other Game… ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 1:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3172 "2018-10-17T01:08:25Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > Tough, get good then. It is a change in favour of the defenders. You seem to have missed the bit where this kind of attitude contributing to poor player retention? ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 1:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3173 "2018-10-17T01:41:49Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > but I don’t like that by “doing what I’m told” I am inconvenienced with having to loose a vessel. Fun fact; There are numerous threads in FANDI where people suggested you lose your ship as part of the tutorial/npe to ‘break you in’. They felt it would make losses afterwards easier to handle. There were also numerous threads where people suggested there be a big fight as part of the npe, where you could see the ‘big ships’ that you’d fly later in the game. Even some that suggested it be like a single player ‘campaign’ with a story. The old npe was pretty much suggested in it’s entirety by players. But really it was just the UI features and (some of) the voice acting that were an asset to it. ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 3:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3174 "2018-10-17T03:24:48Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Sorry, people are douchebags and if the ships were handed out for free I’d self destruct them to skip past so I could move on from forced PvP onto what I’d prefer to be doing. But if you had to have say 5-10 victories before you were allowed to graduate out from the creche, then you would be forced to stay long enough to either teach others through example how to pilot/fit ships or learn from the better pilots how to fit/pilot ships. No skipping to the “good part” as they say in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Sakura\_Hoshizora](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sakura_hoshizora/32/207431_2.png) [@Sakura\_Hoshizora](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sakura_Hoshizora)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 3:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3175 "2018-10-17T03:32:19Z")
Just only allow one ASB and max one cap injector on caps. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 3:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3176 "2018-10-17T03:39:29Z")
> [@Buoytender\_Bob](#): > > But if you had to have say 5-10 victories before you were allowed to graduate out from the creche, then you might not stick with the game even _that_ long. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 3:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3177 "2018-10-17T03:40:25Z")
One ASB and one cap injector won’t do a damned thing about supers or titans. ---
**Author:** ![Sakura\_Hoshizora](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sakura_hoshizora/32/207431_2.png) [@Sakura\_Hoshizora](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sakura_Hoshizora)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 3:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3178 "2018-10-17T03:41:00Z")
Would stop people complaining about Faxes in WHs. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3179 "2018-10-17T03:42:44Z")
Nah. The Ninazu is one of the things they complain about, and it doesn’t use an ASB. It also gets bonuses to cap booster amounts, so a single booster? Sure. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 4:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3180 "2018-10-17T04:10:37Z")
> [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > Criminals operate on the fringes and catch only the laziest, ignorant and unluckiest of players. One of the people I play these games called ‘not eve’ with recently logged into an account he’s not used since before the venture was a mining ship. He loaded up a ‘this here new venture thing that’ with his ore ( that was mined with a bantam, a process that took many more hours back then ) to take it to market and was ganked in high security space. The ganker started a conversation and said his venture was ship scanned at a gate and on the other side his gank alt was waiting with the gank boat. The ganker scooped the loot with an alt ( which went suspect ) and then immediately ejected it so his other alt’s MTU could freely scoop it up. The ganker then offered to give the loot back for its worth in ISK, a scam as old as eve itself. Lazy? No. Ignorant? Less so than most. Unluckiest? Maybe, but how is luck relevant when travel between Jita and Amarr forces traversal through Nijara where this frequently happens? His words at the time were “Its not that I was ganked, it was the sentimental value, the hours that it once took to mine feel like they were wasted and I don’t want to play a game where my time is wasted.” Would he have shown up on CCP Rise’s farcical investigation into ganking? No. Do you think after this incident my acquaintance whipped out the credit card to restart his sub? NO!. Examine how ‘player retention’ is now coming into the spotlight. Members of the CSM have been raising ‘war declarations’ as a problematic mechanic for years, and suddenly this CSM Summit CCP say there’s a problem. CCP have a problem with their data analysis, if they were wrong about war declarations, its equally likely, if not more so, that the investigation into the effect on ganking and player retention was flawed also. It will extremely interesting to see what CCP do in terms of real action on this, or if this just becomes a problem that festers for several more years before a solution as controversial as ECM and Nullification a is implemented. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 4:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3181 "2018-10-17T04:13:22Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > PvE guy meets PvP guy, what s happening? Should it happen? High Security space is supposed to have a poor reward, that’s why Low and Null security space exists, where there is supposed be more reward vs the risk. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 4:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3182 "2018-10-17T04:24:06Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > I like the Rorqual changes, it has produced a lot of content, the amount it mined was a bit much, but is about right now. The Rorqual changes were initially fine, the problem was that mining in Rorquals was scaled up to the point where you used to have maybe 1-2 in a few systems it rapidly went to 10-20, even over 30 lost at one time in Delve are anything to go on. Rather than nerving the Rorqual itself, it would have been better to nerf its ability to scale out in number like it did. Too late now. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 4:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3183 "2018-10-17T04:24:07Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Examine how ‘player retention’ is now coming into the spotlight. It’s been one for years. Hell, two years ago, I was writing a [couple of pieces](https://imperium.news/player-retention-people-stupid/) on [exactly that topic](https://imperium.news/player-retention-cradle-to-grave-after-grave/). Looking over those pieces, among the things I touched on… welp. Highsec PvP? Yup. Ganking? Yep. Bounty-hunting? Check. People feeling relevant? > [@](#): > > Player actions, whether heroes or villains, need to have consequences. Huh. That’s there, too. We’ve been having this conversation for years. All of us. We’ve identified the problems _for years_. We’ve identified the solutions **for years**. Enough is enough. **CCPLEASE, FIX THIS ALREADY** ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 4:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3184 "2018-10-17T04:27:34Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > the problem was that mining in Rorquals was scaled up to the point where you used to have maybe 1-2 in a few systems it rapidly went to 10-20, even over 30 lost at one time in Delve are anything to go on. Oh, there’s regularly 40+ on a single moon frack. But here’s the thing: No matter what, as long as the Rorqual has enough tank to be saved, a free high slot for a cyno, and mines more than a hulk? **That’s what’s gonna happen**. Otherwise, people would be ratting on all those alts, generating absurd amounts of money that way. Or mining in hulks. Organization gives rise to safety. Safety encourages people to feel safe. People who want to feel safe to do PvE… go where they feel safe. And people who want to make absurd amounts of money find an activity that makes enough ISK to plex that account, and then use as many accounts to do _that_ as their machine will handle. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 4:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3185 "2018-10-17T04:28:15Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > There were also numerous threads where people suggested there be a big fight as part of the npe, where you could see the ‘big ships’ that you’d fly later in the game. Even some that suggested it be like a single player ‘campaign’ with a story. I played through that one too. I kept muttering ‘hurry up, I know I can’t fly half of this crap in empire space’. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=156) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=158)