# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 162
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 12:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3268 "2018-10-17T12:20:56Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > You have officially griefed me away from these forums. You are running for CSM, yes? A self acknowledged griefer/scammer and tear farmer running for CSM? Im still listening to this podcast. You people are sick. It just gets worse as it carries on. Legit sociopaths. [http://mindclash.live/the-mind-clash-podcast-episode-55-clash-of-scams/](http://mindclash.live/the-mind-clash-podcast-episode-55-clash-of-scams/) ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 12:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3269 "2018-10-17T12:22:10Z")
What have you done Salvos, we are now doomed, all those scams will start again! ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 12:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3270 "2018-10-17T12:32:14Z")
The\_Judge, also mentioned in the podcast above, currently CSM, stole 3 trillion, @1:21:00. You can buy a lot of votes with 3 TRILLION isk. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 12:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3271 "2018-10-17T12:43:07Z")
> [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > I’m not going to blame your friend here as he was new, but he was clearly doing something wrong if he got ganked in a Venture. He wasn’t new, but you could assume his character was alpha only levels with only 1 or two in mining frigate. > [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > The ship is small (slow to lock), agile, and comes with built in warp stabilizers. Instant lock slasher and a tornado. > [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > It can escape from almost engagement in highsec by just clicking ‘warp’ or ‘jump’ before enough damage can be applied or even locked in most cases. 2, 3 , 4, pop… Someone even tried to help by shooting at the slasher… > [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > If you asked me as an aggressor to catch a Venture in highsec that was actively trying to avoid me, I would be hard-pressed to come up with a cost-effective solution to catch one that didn’t involve sacrificing a much more expensive ship, or used a large fleet of people. That’s what happened. They were organised with multiple ships. Maybe they got bored and just wanted tears and didn’t care for the ISK value. > [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > Eve throws a new player into the same battle arena everyone else is playing in on almost day 1 with no protections. And, often on day 1, players are going to experience loss. This guy mined before the venture was a thing, and to him, EVE hasn’t changed. > [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > _But that is completely intended._ Ships are suppose to be built, used and then lost in this game. They are all disposable tools destined to explode in a pretty ball of fire. “Time” is always going to be wasted in Eve. Ships are going to be lost that cost time or ISK to build, and really have to be to give any meaning to the other side of the game which is gathering stuff and building them. If some player can’t deal with a game that features permanent loss and that sometimes their “time is wasted”, then it is not the ganker that is the problem, but the game itself. I do not disagree, but taking one ship from a veteran with several ships and millions of ISK isn’t the same relative impact, especially when you look at the fact the perpetrators were back at the gate once their criminal timers lapsed. > [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > Maybe there is some solution to better ease newer players into the idea of loss yet still keep the sense of excitement and meaning that keeps other people playing, but making highsec safer has the very real danger of boring even more players out of the game, or leaving them alone and unengaged to flounder along a solo mission or mining career before quitting. This is entirely relevant to the present topic. High security space is too stagnant. The big fish rarely engage each other and so look downwards for content, eating all the new fish. Perhaps Brisc’s idea of removing war declarations isn’t so outlandish, when you consider that a minority of players are declaring most of the wars. If player owned structures in high security space were removed, along with poco’s and ice belts it would create a necessity for players to enter into low security space to find conflict. While it might not directly solve player retention, it would at least move conflicts into areas with much more variety in their PvP mechanics. ---
**Author:** ![Dread\_Saboteur](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dread_saboteur/32/270709_2.png) [@Dread\_Saboteur](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dread_Saboteur)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 12:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3272 "2018-10-17T12:46:13Z")
That’s alot of posts arguing over a bunch of degenerates pushing an agenda that favors their group/groups. In the grand scheme of things goons got the right idea when not if PA asks for more creative cash shop stuff PLEX will be the power curency.So better put your quarrels aside and go farming ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 12:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3273 "2018-10-17T12:46:22Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > If player owned structures in high security space were removed, along with poco’s and ice belts it would create a necessity for players to enter into low security space to find conflict You cant be serious. Are you a troll alt to derail? Remove Citadels, POCOS/PI and Ice from HS? You have to be trolling. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 12:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3274 "2018-10-17T12:53:35Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Are you a troll alt to derail? Stop projecting Salvos ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 12:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3275 "2018-10-17T12:57:11Z")
> [@Annah\_Tsero](#): > > Stop projecting Salvos > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > I know what you are trying to do. > > Trying to force me onto defensive, whilst ignoring posts in between, so I waste time digging up posts or re-explaining, rather than you responding. > > Then you and your buddies troll it, again, with 1 quasi-reasonable poster, 2-3 people picking quotes out of it, **and a couple “lol-posting” in response**. Hi. Doing your job I see. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 12:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3276 "2018-10-17T12:59:34Z")
Idk, is it I who is trolling by calling you out? Or is it you by turning this thread into a “Faylee is as bad as Erotica1” thread? 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 1:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3277 "2018-10-17T13:03:22Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Remove Citadels, POCOS/PI and Ice from HS? EVE existed before such things. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > You have to be trolling. Without war declarations, existing player owned structures would have an inherent unfairness. Flip them all over to Interbus and let those who want more seek it outside of empire space. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Are you a troll alt to derail? If CCP read this thread and in the short term had to choose between doing social corporations and removing war declarations, which do you think would have more support? > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > You cant be serious. You’re being obstinate and trying to poison the well. Its exhausting watching you keep going “no it isn’t” while everyone else says “yes it is”. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 1:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3278 "2018-10-17T13:03:43Z")
Ok! Good! You answered! Thank you. Now, back to substantive discussion, because **that was the whole point** : Q1: How is this gained by restricting Social Corps to HS, but not gained if they’re _not_ restricted to HS? You answered: > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > The issue is players logging off while under wardec and never returning. > Wardecs do not relevantly apply in LS/NS/WH, only in HS. > > Thus nothing is gained by allowing Social Corps into or in LS/NS/WH. > > Its for small groups or solo HS players to continue PvE without wardecs, with their own Tag/identity, in HS. This tells us that there’s no specific gain to _not_ restricting people, but it doesn’t tell us what we gain if we _do_ restrict them, which is what I asked. As we established days ago, restrictions are only justified when there is something to gain _from the restriction_. So while I appreciate you attempting to answer, this answer doesn’t actually address the question. Maybe that’s my fault. Maybe I’m not being clear. What I’m trying to find out is… what specific benefit is there to this specific restriction? You said: > [@](#): > > So small friend groups or solo HS PvErs can do their thing in a Social Corp without wardecs. > This to prevent them leaving during wardecs and never returning. > That was the idea and point all along. > That, and only that. Ok. Let’s assume for a moment that social corps will do that. None of the things that make social corps different from regular corps under your proposal have any effect in LS/NS/WHs. Wardecs, as you point out, are meaningless there. So, if social corps will achieve those goals, then social corps will do that _regardless_ of whether or not their members can go into LS/NW/WHs, right? Do you see some reason social corps would _not_ achieve their goals if they’re allowed into LS/NS/WHs? Because see, one bit of what you said is _very_ important: > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Its for small groups or solo HS players to continue PvE without wardecs, with their own Tag/identity, in HS. It’s about being social. It’s about being able to do things with your friends. Right? But our friends aren’t always on when we’re on. Our friends don’t always want to try out the same things we do, at the same times. So let me set you an example: You’ve got a social corp. There’s 10 players in it. They’re in HS. They enjoy doing stuff together. One of them decides he wants to see what wormholes are like. He’s not looking to move into j-space and join up with HK or anyone, he just wants to check them out, poke around, get an idea on whether or not he should try to get his friends to give them a try. He _doesn’t_ want to leave his friends. After all, he’s there to play _with_ his friends. Why should he be forced to quit his corp just to see if wormholes are a thing he might enjoy? Why should he be forced to quit his corp if he’s running L4 missions, and one of them sends him into lowsec (because they do, if you’re near LS)? Because I see that—forcing people to choose between their friends, the very social interaction that keeps them playing, and just _trying_ new things—as a major problem. I see that as something that will make the idea crash and burn. So: what _specific benefit_, over and above achieving the goals of Social Corps, do you see being gained by restricting them to HS? That’s a legitimate concern, and I’ve outlined why. Now, on to Question 2: What benefit is _gained_ by restricting gankers from doing everything they can do in an undeccable NPC corp, in a social corp? > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Its not about adding benefit. Its about preventing abuse. > > In the restrictions I posted, Suicide Gankers can form Social Corps, but they cannot turn off Green Safety, they cannot have members with \<0.1 Sec status, and they cannot venture into \<0.5 space. > > If they want to commit criminal or suspect acts, they can still do so in a Player or NPC Corp. > > The purpose of Social Corps is so small groups or solo HS players can PvE without wardecs, with their own Tag/identity, not to allow Suicide Gankers and pirates to use a Social Corps for their criminal and suspect flag causing activities, whilst wardec immune. Ok, so… and tell me if I’m getting this right… the benefit you see is that it will prevent gankers from joining social corps. That’s fair, I can see that as something you’d consider a benefit. I’m not sure I agree, but I’m not sure I’d disagree either. But at the same time… I can’t help but think of our friend who wanted to investigate wormholes, but can’t without leaving all of his friends. What if someone in one of these social corps, which, again, exist so small groups can maintain their own identity without worrying about the systemic, organized PvP of a wardec being dropped on them (they can still _get_ ganked, after all)… what if someone in a social corp wants to _try_ ganking for the first time? They’ve never done it. They don’t know what the big deal is, but they’re curious. Again, you’re forcing them to choose between ‘investigate more of the game’ and ‘stay with my friends’. Why? People progress through things at different rates. They get interested in different things at different speeds. But that doesn’t mean they want to ditch their friends. That doesn’t mean they want to abandon the group identity they’ve built up with those friends. Forcing them to do that seems unnecessarily restrictive. I’ve mentioned that when I first started, I was one of those HS miners who didn’t want to PvP. I’ve even mentioned that our corp eventually moved into wormholes. We didn’t all decide ‘let’s try this’ at once. Our CEO got curious first, and he started poking around in j-space on his own. He saw the much, much better ore in there, and started thinking maybe we should consider day-tripping into wormholes when there was one around. It was another three months before the whole corp went mining in a wormhole. Hell, it was six weeks before his _wife_ went in. Why should he have been told ‘if you want to try something new in EVE, you have to leave your wife’? Why should HS groups that want to do the ‘social corp’ thing have to be _stuck_ in HS, and stuck doing PvE, without being able to try new things unless they abandon their friends? ‘You’re in a social corp, you’ve never ganked anyone… and you’ll never be able to unless you leave your buddies’. It just seems like they’re trapped. It feels like… _not_ EVE. Like opportunities being taken _away_, instead of offered. That’s what I don’t get here. That’s why I’m trying to find some upside to that _specific_ restriction. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 1:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3279 "2018-10-17T13:04:42Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > That’s what I don’t get here. Boil it down. I’m not reading that wall of waffle, much less responding to it. Get rid of the space wasters and the unnecessary/irrelevant. I dont care about your origins as a miner, or any of the other trash there that is irrelevant to what we are discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 1:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3280 "2018-10-17T13:06:51Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > I’m not reading that wall of waffle, much less responding to it. You should, it was a good read. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 1:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3281 "2018-10-17T13:09:46Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Get rid of the space wasters and the unnecessary/irrelevant. There were none. My origins are relevant, because we would have been a Social Corp, if such had existed. ---
**Author:** ![Kylanti\_Hendar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kylanti_hendar/32/385538_2.png) [@Kylanti\_Hendar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kylanti_Hendar)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 1:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3282 "2018-10-17T13:13:31Z")
If CCP go with the social corps idea, they definitely should not make them black holes for PvE players. They need to be able to do all the same s\*\*t everyone else can do in Eve i.e. gank, roam, scam etc. Otherwise they’ll be stuck forever. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3283 "2018-10-17T13:15:39Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Ok! Good! You answered! Thank you. Now, back to substantive discussion, because **that was the whole point** : I answered your questions. Now you answer mine. Describe to us, specifically, exactly, what a Social Corp would allow, or not. Post it as CCP would, as a list of what it is, and is not, in patch notes of Social Corps release. ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3284 "2018-10-17T13:46:18Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Instant lock slasher and a tornado. Dear Lord. To shoot a Venture with a hold of ore? Was there some Skill Injectors or something else in there? I’m also not even sure it is possible with an insta-locking Slasher given you need at least two warp scrams or better, three disruptors for range, to stop a Venture. Fitting it that way makes it not instalocking anymore, and in any case would likely require an unlucky/lucky gate spawn to be in range of the tackling ship given even an alpha clone has a Venture in warp in just a few seconds. I’m not saying it is impossible, just that I don’t think it a very reliable way to catch a Venture. In any case, I believe you so that is like 100 times the cost in gank ships to kill a sub-million ISK mining frigate. If it happened like this, your friend should be laughing at this disproportionate attack and take pride in winning the ISK war by so much. But maybe it isn’t much consolation to some newer or returning player, but I can’t imagine such an event is very common. > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > This is entirely relevant to the present topic. High security space is too stagnant. The big fish rarely engage each other and so look downwards for content, eating all the new fish. Perhaps Brisc’s idea of removing war declarations isn’t so outlandish, when you consider that a minority of players are declaring most of the wars. > > If player owned structures in high security space were removed, along with poco’s and ice belts it would create a necessity for players to enter into low security space to find conflict. While it might not directly solve player retention, it would at least move conflicts into areas with much more variety in their PvP mechanics. I agree that would be a possible model, but removing wars and player structures from highsec would be incredibly disruptive at this point. There are so many player-owned stations and POCOs in highsec now. It would upset a lot of people and require a lot of work. I don’t see a feasible option. Limiting wars to non-structure owning groups somehow seems much easier. As for getting people to fight, that is the eternal problem that is something CCP seems to always have problem with. Given the lack of objectives for people to actually fight over in highsec, it doesn’t surprise me that most of the conflict can be characterized as “low meaning” or even “griefing”. I mean, when you don’t give real objectives for highsec players to fight over, it is up to them to come up with reasons for conflict that often aren’t more than ‘you exist’. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 1:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3286 "2018-10-17T13:59:02Z")
> [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > As for getting people to fight, that is the eternal problem that is something CCP seems to always have problem with. Some people dont want to fight. They are skill and isk invested into non-PvP skills/ships/fits and engage only in PvE. There is no way to make them want to fight, nor do they have the means to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 2:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3287 "2018-10-17T14:00:42Z")
Just to see if I understand your request here: while we’re discussing what a social corp should be, you want me to spell or for you what one is? Isn’t that the whole point of discussing what they should be? If it’s what you want, though, I’ll lay out what I think they should be, when I get back to the keyboard and can compose my thoughts (still in the waiting room). But I just want to be sure I understand what you’re asking, first. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 2:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3288 "2018-10-17T14:03:08Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > But I just want to be sure I understand what you’re asking, first. I want you to post how you think CPP should implement Social Corps, in the format that CCP would introduce it in patch notes on launch of it. Do you understand that? TLDR: Post your Social Corps idea, as if it was in the CCP patch notes on its launch. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=161) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=163)