# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 166
**Author:** ![Iowa\_Banshee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iowa_banshee/32/218394_2.png) [@Iowa\_Banshee](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iowa_Banshee)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3349 "2018-10-17T20:06:53Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > It has been established, in the CSM minutes this thread is about, that wardecs are causing attrition of players. I think just one wardec may not be enough to force players out, from what I have seen troubles set in with: Multiple and Consecutive wardecs - If you are a relatively new player, A corp owner who cannot play with alts on low skilled (no toon jump to do something different). - If you are a solo player Being hopelessly outnumbered - With no hope putting up a fight where you might just kill an opponent - When you catch a enemy 1v1 you can beat they have neutral logistics and you die - rage quit is real Total loss of all corporate structures - It’s bad enough being outnumbered, outgunned and under an extended war but every structure started on the path to destruction on day one… ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3350 "2018-10-17T20:07:41Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Social Corps wont hurt retention. The way you’d have them set up, they will. Not as badly as wardecs do, but they will. > [@Arrendis](#): > > If the _entire corp_ has to be ready to convert before _one person_ can see what other things are out there that they _might_ want to try, then that’s a dead end. That one person is more likely to start feeling hemmed in and bored than everyone else is to be ready to try something new at the same time. He’s more likely to be annoyed at the game that’s limiting him, and he’s more likely to be annoyed at the friends who are suddenly ‘holding him back’. > > Which is all a bunch of really good ways to get him to quit, and never come back. That… is hurting retention. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 8:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3351 "2018-10-17T20:08:13Z")
All of those are “fixed” by a NPC equivalent Social Corp, that is unwardeccable, but also cannot drop green safety, and cannot leave HS. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3352 "2018-10-17T20:11:30Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > That… is hurting retention. An HS small or solo group of players that just wants to PvE in HS without wardecs, has no need of yellow/red safety, and would only be harmed by venturing outside of HS (where the wardec immunity is moot) If they want that, they can join NPC or (form) Player Corp. Social Corps are not intended for Suicide Gankers, or LS/NS/WH. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3353 "2018-10-17T20:13:09Z")
How much more of this circle quoting ridiculousness? 🤪 Have not enough been said/wrote already? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3354 "2018-10-17T20:16:22Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > How much more of this circle quoting ridiculousness? 🤪 They will never stop avoiding the issues with their view of Social Corps. They have big plans if implemented as they want them. NS and suicide gankers have been pushing for Social Corps, as they see them, for them, for years. ---
**Author:** ![Keiko\_O\_dina](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/keiko_o_dina/32/101076_2.png) [@Keiko\_O\_dina](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Keiko_O_dina)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3355 "2018-10-17T20:17:48Z")
This. I think I’d be ok with some moratorium on Wardecs. Give me a chance to breath, if that’s not my thing, or I’m not able to compete. I agree with the more PvP oriented posters that EVE should never have a “safe” switch. But perhaps it needs a “gimme a medpac” switch. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3356 "2018-10-17T20:18:55Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > They have big plans if implemented as they want them. > > NS and suicide gankers have been pushing for Social Corps, as they see them, for them, for years. Just what plans do you think we have? There is literally no benefit to a social corp that an NPC corp doesn’t give, except the social aspect, and you know what? _We don’t need the HS corp for that, we have Mumble already_. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3357 "2018-10-17T20:20:22Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > There is literally no benefit to a social corp that an NPC corp doesn’t give This contradicts you saying earlier it would be like a Player Corp. Get your spin straight. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3358 "2018-10-17T20:20:54Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > This contradicts you saying earlier it would be like a Player Corp. How does it contradict it? What benefit do you see it having? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3359 "2018-10-17T20:22:00Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > There is literally no benefit to a social corp that an NPC corp doesn’t give > [@Arrendis](#): > > > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > > > This contradicts you saying earlier it would be like a Player Corp. > > How does it contradict it? What benefit do you see it having? Are you unaware of the differences between a NPC and Player Corp? Is your head spinning that hard with your own propaganda? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3360 "2018-10-17T20:23:45Z")
I am asking you what benefit you think being in an undec’able highsec corp that can’t anchor structures (beyond the MTU stuff, even you agreed with ‘no citadels/refineries’ etc) would give to us that an NPC corp does not. And what _plans_ you think we have. Or is this just some massive ‘NULLSEC ALWAYS HAS PLANS!!!’ conspiracy in your head? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3361 "2018-10-17T20:25:09Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Or is this just some massive ‘NULLSEC ALWAYS HAS PLANS!!!’ conspiracy in your head? Why then are you pushing so hard for a Social Corp system that isnt HS exclusive, and isnt fixed to Green safety? ---
**Author:** ![Keiko\_O\_dina](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/keiko_o_dina/32/101076_2.png) [@Keiko\_O\_dina](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Keiko_O_dina)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3362 "2018-10-17T20:26:04Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Why then are you pushing so hard for a Social Corp system that isnt HS exclusive, and isnt fixed to Green safety? Because even a noob like me wants to go fly around in WH space. (And get blown up for it) ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3363 "2018-10-17T20:26:16Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Why then are you pushing so hard for a Social Corp system that isnt HS exclusive, and isnt fixed to Green safety? Because, as I’ve said a dozen times already, I think it will hurt retention, I think placing restrictions that don’t need to be there is a bad way to do things in general, and I basically just think that limitation is STUPIDER THAN THE PET ROCK. You remember those, right? You remember how dumb those were? You don’t need it. It is adding complexity. Added complexity is _bad_ unless it is absolutely necessary. Added complexity means more places for things to go wrong. If something is necessary, it is necessary, If it isn’t, **get rid of it** [1]. So, since I’ve answered what has to be the most ridiculous question in a thread full of them, I ask you **again** : Just what plans do you think we have? * * * 1. Seriously. If something isn’t needed, it shouldn’t be there. This whole ‘lets add this even if it isn’t needed’ nonsense is what gave us the Monitor, arguably the stupidest and most useless ship in the game, no matter _how_ many PanFam and Dead Coalition FCs love losing them. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3364 "2018-10-17T21:06:38Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I think it will hurt retention The purpose of Social Corp is to retain HS small group/solo players so they can PvE in HS without wardec, to stop them logging off when wardecced and not returning. > [@Arrendis](#): > > I think placing restrictions that don’t need to be there The restrictions I posted need to be there to prevent abuse of this new Social Corp mechanic by those it is not intended for. PS: Have you decided yet if in your proposal its like a NPC Corp, or like a Player Corp? You keep avoiding this and refusing to define it specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3365 "2018-10-17T21:09:43Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > The purpose of Social Corp, is to retain HS small grouå/solo players so they can PvE in HS without wardec, to stop them logging off when wardecced and not returning. And I think it can be achieved without locking them into a cage in HS that will hurt retention, all on its own. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > The restrictions I posted need to be there to prevent abuse of this new Social Corp mechanic by those it is not intended for. The abuses you’ve indicated can already be done in an NPC corp. What advantage does the social corp provide that they don’t already have? Again: Just what plans do you think we have? > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > PS: Have you decided yet if in your proposal its like a NPC Corp, or like a Player Corp? > You keep avoiding this and refusing to define it specifically. You mean except for the bit where [I did, in fact, define it](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZwJg2XSSzrRj9MEh-58cd5hzsvb9lDUxkoVfwwzV53E/edit?usp=sharing)? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3366 "2018-10-17T21:15:52Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > You mean except for the bit where [I did, in fact, define it](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZwJg2XSSzrRj9MEh-58cd5hzsvb9lDUxkoVfwwzV53E/edit?usp=sharing)? Its incomplete and lacking. What is the tax rate? What is the leadership structure? Does it have Corp Hangars? What is cost of creation? How is the Corp destroyed? Its like you didnt read the discussion, or like you ignored them as convenient. I dont trust anything you say further than I can throw you. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3367 "2018-10-17T21:16:53Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > What is the tax rate? > What is the leadership structure? > Does it have Corp Hangars? > What is cost of creation? > How is the Corp destroyed? > **Social Corporations are otherwise identical to normal (or ‘Active’) Player Corporations.** Or, you know, did you miss that bit? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3368 "2018-10-17T21:24:27Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Social Corporations are otherwise identical to normal (or ‘Active’) Player Corporations. And yet you earlier said it would be like an NPC Corp. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=165) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=167)