# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 167
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3369 "2018-10-17T21:28:37Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > And yet you earlier said it would be like an NPC Corp. What I said was: > [@Arrendis](#): > > There is literally no benefit to a social corp that an NPC corp doesn’t give, except the social aspect And if you want to care about corp hangars or tax breaks, great, but those really don’t provide anything that can be abused. There’s nothing a ganker would get from this that he doesn’t have now, for example. Even if you want to rail about ‘corp hangars’, he can login an alt in a player corp, hand the stuff to his NPC gank-corp alt, and roll on. They already _do_ that. How do you think Miniluv gives out _thousands_ of destroyers for Burn Jita every year? We don’t all have characters in the corp Miniluv uses for storing assets. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3370 "2018-10-17T21:30:43Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > There is literally no benefit to a social corp that an NPC corp doesn’t give, except the social aspect Cba to dig through this thread you and your buddies have wrecked for the quote where you said it would be like an NPC Corp. So if its like a Player Corp, the Social Corp tax rate is also set by CEO? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3371 "2018-10-17T21:32:15Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Cba to dig through this thread you and your buddies have wrecked for the quote where you said it would be like an NPC Corp. > > So if its like a Player Corp, the Social Corp tax rate is also set by CEO? I don’t see why not. ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3372 "2018-10-17T21:33:42Z")
Social corps don’t seem a good idea to me. They will either be too open, or restrict players in their activities too much. In respect to the oft quoted CSM quote of retention issues, if is war scope that is the problem, not corporations. This is why I propose limiting war scope by system sec status. Corps stay as they are, the system change can be put in quickly, POCO and citadel issues can be sorted after. Address wars directly where the problem is. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3373 "2018-10-17T21:34:50Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I don’t see why not. So your view of what will fix issues, is a Social Corp that is identical to Player Corps, except it cant join Alliances, cant own structures and has a 100 member limit? Thats it? Amazing, you really have no shame pushing your agenda. You really dont care about the repercussions as long as your interrsts benefit, do you. Either that, or you are outstandingly ignorant to the fact you are creating more problems instead of solving one. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3374 "2018-10-17T21:36:28Z")
I don’t think anyone (other than Proteus’ outburst) has said they’re ‘the’ solution. It’s certainly not a panacea. But it’s an option for CCP to look at. Addressing war mechanics would be a longer-term measure. When you say limting war scope by system sec status, do you mean changing the status of systems, or limiting war activities to like 0.7 and below? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3375 "2018-10-17T21:38:32Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > So your view of what will fix issues, is a Social Corp that is identical to Player Corps, except it cant join Alliances, cant own structures and has a 100 member limit? > > Thats it? > > Amazing, you really have no shame pushing your agenda. > You really dont care about the repercussions as long as your interrsts benefit, do you. You keep talking about my ‘agenda’. Exactly what agenda am I supposed to have here? What ‘plans’ do you keep referring to? And once you answer those questions (which have been asked multiple times, and you keep not answering them), what problems do you think that would create? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3376 "2018-10-17T21:39:17Z")
Amazing. People like you will be the death of this game. Others have proposed Social Corps would be like NPC Corps, but you just are so greedy you want more, that it has to be like a Player Corp. You dont even think they should be NPC taxed, and also have Corp hangars. You’ve lost the plot, completely. You dont care about the game or its problems, just your own interests. ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3377 "2018-10-17T21:52:00Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > When you say limting war scope by system sec status, do you mean changing the status of systems, or limiting war activities to like 0.7 and below? The latter, this concentrates the focus areas for wars, allows corps to avoid war systems if they don’t want to fight. They can stay in higher sec systems to avoid PvP, but at a loss in ISK generation, but equally can dip their to in to combat as and when they want. Then they can still earn ISK to recover from losses too. Structures could only be owned in war dec systems (hence the issue with existing POCOs and structures). If you want a citadel, be prepared to defend it. If my suggestion of moving level IV agents to war systems were adopted this would have the advantage of promoting player run missioning markets in these areas. In short address the problem of wars by addressing wars with a proper plan. Changing corps is a different can of worms which doesn’t start to directly fix wars. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3378 "2018-10-17T21:52:28Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Amazing. > > People like you will be the death of this game. > > Others have proposed Social Corps would be like NPC Corps, but you just are so greedy you want more, that it has to be like a Player Corp. > > You dont even think they should be NPC taxed, and also have Corp hangars. > > You’ve lost the plot, completely. > > You dont care about the game or its problems, just your own interests. This looks like a whole lot of not answering the questions. I answered yours. Exactly what agenda am I supposed to have here? What ‘plans’ do you keep referring to? What problems do you think that would create? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3379 "2018-10-17T21:54:08Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > > > Amazing. > > > > People like you will be the death of this game. > > > > Others have proposed Social Corps would be like NPC Corps, but you just are so greedy you want more, that it has to be like a Player Corp. > > > > You dont even think they should be NPC taxed, and also have Corp hangars. > > > > You’ve lost the plot, completely. > > > > You dont care about the game or its problems, just your own interests. > > This looks like a whole lot of not answering the questions. I answered yours. No, looks like a whole lot of you pushing a ridiculous agenda, which create more problems than they fix. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3380 "2018-10-17T21:54:53Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > No, looks like a whole lot of you pushing a ridiculous agenda, which create more problems than they fix. What agenda? What problems do you think will be created? Those are _exactly_ the questions you’re not answering. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3381 "2018-10-17T21:55:59Z")
Did you read the thread? Even the most outspoken proponents of Social Corps here have said it should be like an NPC Corp. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3382 "2018-10-17T21:56:49Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Did you read the thread? Yes. See? I’m continuing to answer your questions. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Even the most outspoken proponents of Social Corps here have said it should be like an NPC Corp. I believe you. But that doesn’t answer _either_ question: What agenda? What problems do you think will be created? ---
**Author:** ![Eve\_Griefer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/eve_griefer/32/277788_2.png) [@Eve\_Griefer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Eve_Griefer)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3383 "2018-10-17T21:57:40Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > > > No, looks like a whole lot of you pushing a ridiculous agenda, which create more problems than they fix. > > What agenda? > What problems do you think will be created? > Those are _exactly_ the questions you’re not answering. And he won’t answer them. I admire your patience but it’s quite clear he’s trying to get you to answer questions intended for the others of us who have merely suggested social corps as one fix to player retention. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 10:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3384 "2018-10-17T22:00:53Z")
The problem is HS small group and solo players logging off during wardec, and not returning. That is the hole to be plugged. They dont need yellow/red safety to commit suspect or criminal acts, or to go to LS/NS/WH where wardec is irrelevant. They just need wardec immunity and a Corp tag for identity. Thats all. You are trying to expand and weaponize this issue beyond its purview, and beyond the solution necessary. Stop trying to shoehorn your own interests into it to ride in on its coat-tails in ways that are not relevant to the issue at hand and create more problems. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 10:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3385 "2018-10-17T22:01:31Z")
> [@Eve\_Griefer](#): > > I admire your patience but I appreciate that, but this isn’t patience. Like I told him: I’m a pedantic jerk. I enjoy this. This is playing with my food. > [@Eve\_Griefer](#): > > it’s quite clear he’s trying to get you to answer questions intended for the others of us who have merely suggested social corps as one fix to player retention. I figure he got fed up with everyone telling him he was wrong to insist on the earlier idea of a wardec structure instead of social corps (when, you know, both could be implemented in parallel, but he didn’t want to hear that), so he’s trying to co-opt what he saw as the ‘popular’ position and has no idea how to actually defend it, because he doesn’t have the first clue what he’s trying to achieve. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3386 "2018-10-17T22:03:30Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > The problem is HS small group and solo players logging off during wardec, and not returning. > > That is the hole to be plugged. > > They dont need yellow/red safety to commit suspect or criminal acts, or to go to LS/NS/WH where wardec is irrelevant. > > They just need wardec immunity and a Corp tag for identity. > Thats all. Well, except you said my approach would _cause more problems_. The question is what problems are _those_? When I’ve had objections to things you’ve suggested, I’ve been able to outline _why_, beyond just repeating some meaningless boilerplate of ‘because that’s not what it’s for’. You present these things, the ability to alter your safety, or the ability to go through certain gates, as ‘extras’… they’re not extras. They’re what’s already there, and they’re things that aren’t dependant on corporate mechanics _at all_. That means you’re talking about _adding_ more conditionals for the code to have to check, and more complexity in how it has to work. It’s that—the added complexity—that needs to be justified, not the ability of players to engage in _default behavior_ that’s already coded and which doesn’t need to be touched _whatsoever_ to address wardec issues. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > You are trying to expand and weaponize this issue beyond its purview, and beyond the solution necessary… Weaponize it _how_? Again: Just what do you think my ‘agenda’ is? It’s like trying to discuss an issue with a 9/11 truther. ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3387 "2018-10-17T22:08:11Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > They dont need yellow/red safety to commit suspect or criminal acts, or to go to LS/NS/WH where wardec is irrelevant This is problematic as for a player to try out LS/null/WHs they then have to drop corp and leave their friends behind. Limiting what players can do does not help with limiting wardecs. ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3388 "2018-10-17T22:10:56Z")
This doesn’t meet the needs of the people who are leaving EVE at the highest attrition rate. Instead of encouraging them to form starter corporations and grow together, you are saying “hey guys, form a group and you cannot be decced but we are going to remove at least half of your playground and reduce your other play options even more.” …and the possible long term paying customer looks at another MMO for more freedom and options to play. Kind of like a husband and wife in an abusive relationship: Wife: I’m tired of being beaten, I’m leaving. Husband: I’ll stop beating you. Wife: Well,OK, maybe I’ll stay Husband: But in return, you can eat only dogfood,wear rags, and sleep in the garage. Wife: Hello,Uber? Why do people want to “improve” EVE by incorporating even more restrictions? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=166) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=168)