# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 173
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 8:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3489 "2018-10-21T08:01:13Z")
> [@Buoytender\_Bob](#): > > New player creation charts show that the daily origination of new characters has fallen to near pre-alpha introduction levels That was to be expected. When CCP initially released devblog about introduction of alpha clone I wrote that they will not get far away with it if they dont fix problems with high sec, add avatar gameplay, and put more interesting stuff all over the game, so more people will enjoy it and convert and get friends to play. But then again why even have alpha clones if your game is even better, so it makes more players play for cash? Heh. > [@Buoytender\_Bob](#): > > 2017 CCP financials not yet available, It is available. > The company’s income in 2017 amounted to 65.4 million dollars. Profit for the year according to the income statement was 3.4 millions of dollars. Assets at year end were 107.7 million dollars and equity 45.1 million dollars. > > Employees > The Group had 298 at the end of its offices in Reykjavík, Newcastle, Shanghai and Atlanta, to > compared to 360 at the beginning of the year. You just have to ask Icelandic office for it. For a reason. BTW that is just google translation, I dont know Icelandic. 😅 ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 8:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3490 "2018-10-21T08:06:35Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > That they said “fair”, is not an issue. > Its just a choice of a word, and focusing on that alone completely misses the point. This is what CCP said on their slide > Everyon should understand the rules of engagement and viewed as fair by most To me it tells their approach in how they want to re-design war decs. I think that IF most players can see wars as being “fair” then it’s a good thing. I just think that it’s going to end up being like chasing a rabbit into its hole to pursue this. The reason I say this is because unless they completely strip away the open nature of PVP and create some structured arena environment where everyone is on a true fair and equal level, then the players that are better and most prepared are almost always going to win. It’s going to be much easier to say that something is unfair when you lose than to look at it for what it really is. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Would you prefer if they said “unfair”? No I wouldn’t. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Neutral logi interfering is a problem and leads to being able to exploit abuse war/aggression mechanics. Its definitely up there in the top 3 of problems with wardec mechanics as they are now. Sure I’ll agree that players can find that to be an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 8:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3491 "2018-10-21T08:20:54Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > When did they do this before? O yes removing every tool possible to hunt people till it became near on impossible resulting in today’s meta of blanket deccing. Take a moment to do some self reflection. Those who abused the logging system to feed watchlist information into 3rd party programs to generate AFK alerts ruined your gameplay, not CCP. This is the oscillatory nature of eve, where a mechanic, once ‘broken’ quickly spreads and proliferates to the point where it becomes ‘normal’ and those who fall foul are told to ( HTFU ) adapt. When the mechanic is altered, what is seen as ‘normal’ gameplay is no longer possible and the same folk who said to ‘get gud, lol’ find themselves on the back foot unable to cope. > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > None of this changes ■■■■, defenders won’t engage in the mechanics no matter how pretty you make them look. Defenders are being given a means to not become defenders in the first place. > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > Can tell that by the constant dribble posted on forums since CCP released this information. No doubt there will be people who feel their years in eve give them rights that newer players should not be afforded. Not everyone has to play this game the same way those who came before did. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 8:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3492 "2018-10-21T08:28:29Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > I mean once CCP are done crapping over wars where do you think they’re going next? Getting angry at CCP for trying to protect the health of their game and potentially their bottom line is something everyone is entitled to do, though its equally important to recognise that driving the game into ruin is equally intolerable. ---
**Author:** ![Yiole\_Gionglao](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yiole_gionglao/32/374866_2.png) [@Yiole\_Gionglao](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yiole_Gionglao)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 8:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3493 "2018-10-21T08:32:25Z")
The thing with F2P is that it allows many players to try the game while it isn’t their game, whereas those players could have succeeded if they had tried later. So the players you could have had at 25 tried it at 22 and didn’t like it; it’s what a Spanish saying calls “bread for today and hunger for tomorrow” as in eating now the seeds of the next crop so you won’t starve now but also won’t have another crop. Right now character creation still is a little above to pre-F2P, but it’s going down and it’s a very bad sign. As you say, CCP should had given love to the highsec crowds while those crowds still played, now they said at Vegas that want to work on the missions system next year but, who’s gonna be left to try it? And after 2 years of trying for free, who’s gonna be left to try EVE Online based on its current appeal? ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 8:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3494 "2018-10-21T08:34:47Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Take a moment to do some self reflection. > > Those who abused the logging system to feed watchlist information into 3rd party programs to generate AFK alerts ruined your gameplay, not CCP. This is true but false at the same time. We warned what would happen if the watch list was removed and have begged CCP for years to make changes to war decs to revive hunting. Instead they do everything possible to nerf it so hard to the point that it’s so time consuming no one in there right mind would hunt anymore when you can dec 150 corporations/alliances and sit in Jita with a stream of kills. Dont get me wrong, I totally understand why they removed it but looking at the super cap problem we have now probably would of been better to leave it in. Every action has a reaction, player base is trying to get rid of war decs that’s fine, they can deal with the consquences that follow when we gank anything and everything that moves in space because we can. (While still keeping our 105:1 KDA as we got stupid amount of alts) > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Getting angry at CCP for trying to protect the health of their game and potentially their bottom line is something everyone is entitled to do, though its equally important to recognise that driving the game into ruin is equally intolerable. I understand why CCP are making changes and as a war decker agree things needed to change years ago. I just feel that once CCP make major changes like this it will result in countless more ‘think of the children’ till we have a game that isn’t Eve anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 8:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3495 "2018-10-21T08:37:08Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > The scammer/griefer is concerned about fairness now Why are you still here? ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 8:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3496 "2018-10-21T08:52:27Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > Do you think a “fair”system is achievable when it’s likely that the same mercs are going to be involved? > > Typically it’s one side that has: > > - Blinged and tanky T3s and Battleship with High-Grade pods > - 1 or 2 alts in T2 logi (with Logi 5) or Nestors per 1 DPS > - Extensive experience with multiboxing and using alts > - Experience and knowledge of using and abusing mechanics and loopholes in order to gain an advantage > - Has historically been better prepared and organized than opposition > > COMPARED TO: > > - A rag-tag group of players in T1 ships > - Don’t have the extensive use of alts > - Players with less experience and less organization > - Won’t have a network of alts to use as scouts > - Typically less knowledgeable and experience in mechanics and loopholes > > —— > I’m not saying that what CCP is doing is futile by if they are in search of a system that takes a better player and puts him on an even keel with a lesser, then you’re looking at a system that works to nullify the differences in the two that provide such a difference in skill or preparedness. > > I am concerned about their use of the word “fair”. That’s all. I hope we don’t see Highsec wars and pvp be some kind of instanced arena crap 😕 First of all that is an excellent post. I don’t like the word fair, as fair does not exist in Eve, **what I am talking about is balance** , and what you have detailed as in the difference between PIRAT and the people they attack, it is unfair, however CCP needs to be focussed on hisec balance and so should anyone looking at this issue. This is why I would suggest that CCP could have different structures that control the war dec for different types of war targets in hisec. What you want to do is put back the control of their Eve game play to end the war for the defender so for a small hisec corp a rush attack on the structure controlling their war dec should be possible. So it is not so much a skill balance but an opportunity balance. The problem is that this needs to scale with the larger entities most notably the top tier nullsec alliances. I think this is very doable. @Brisc_Rubal and @Steve_Ronuken What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 8:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3497 "2018-10-21T08:55:23Z")
It was not due to hunting supers and titans, but people seeing the enemy logged in and not going for a fight. In any case the watch list removal is totally correct because it was too much information giving you total awareness of your target. In affect I would go with the locator agent adding online status as a quick and easy fix which is not game breaking. > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Those who abused the logging system to feed watchlist information into 3rd party programs to generate AFK alerts ruined your gameplay, not CCP. This is so true, great post @Litsea_Reticulata ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 8:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3498 "2018-10-21T08:57:37Z")
There will always be a timer on a structure. So a rush attack would never be possible vs pirat, or it would be too easy to rush attack someone smaller than pirat outside their timezone. That can never be balanced. What you actually need is for the defender to ‘win’ the war by keeping doing their current activities. Now they don’t have to try and do something they aren’t good at, but being in space (and therefore staying in the game) provides a win, and maybe even forfeits the attackers war purse to them (or half the attackers war cost). Flip war costs to be based on the attackers size, with a fee for joining an aggressor corp after a war is declared, along with the above, and now you actually have the start of a decent looking asymmetric war system. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 9:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3499 "2018-10-21T09:01:01Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > Instead they do everything possible to nerf it so hard to the point that it’s so time consuming no one in there right mind would hunt anymore when you can dec 150 corporations/alliances and sit in Jita with a stream of kills. Not everything. Locking ships that aren’t in fleet requiring yellow safety… Setting safety to yellow in high-sec causing instant suspect… Setting safety to red … Instant call-down of concord… > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > Every action has a reaction, player base is trying to get rid of war decs that’s fine, they can deal with the consquences that follow when we gank anything and everything that moves in space because we can. Do so and the above will become a reality. > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > I just feel that once CCP make major changes like this it will result in countless more ‘think of the children’ till we have a game that isn’t Eve anymore. You could always go into low-security space when you can do everything you currently are without pesky concord ruining the fun? ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 9:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3500 "2018-10-21T09:06:10Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > ou could always go into low-security space when you can do everything you currently are without pesky concord ruining the fun? And null alliances could go to wormhole to avoid these new jump bridges, don’t see that being a valid argument. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 9:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3501 "2018-10-21T09:06:28Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > There will always be a timer on a structure. So a rush attack would never be possible vs pirat, or it would be too easy to rush attack someone smaller than pirat outside their timezone. That can never be balanced. Of course that is balanced, it is balanced against the war deckers, again you refuse to understand the issue. PIRAT war dec people to get passing farming opportunities in the pipes and hubs, they don’t care so much about the TZ. This forces them to be more aware of the TZ of the people they war dec. It is designed to be in balance of the defender which is why I want the structure to be vulnerable in the TZ of the defender. In fact I want it vulnerable to all and one shot and can be shot by any of the entities that are war decked. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > What you actually need is for the defender to ‘win’ the war by keeping doing their current activities. They won’t, they will stay logged off. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Now they don’t have to try and do something they aren’t good at, but being in space (and therefore staying in the game) provides a win, and maybe even forfeits the attackers war purse to them (or half the attackers war cost). Meaningless, because the defender in the main does not want the war and has no way to end it apart from hoping that the war decker gets bored and drops it. That is the issue, that is the issue that you are refusing to acknowledge and why so many people decide and will continue to decide to not log in. My target is to take aim at that with actual PvP. And this could include their allies coming in to help them do that. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 9:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3502 "2018-10-21T09:08:59Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > It is designed to be in balance of the defender which is why I want the structure to be vulnerable in the TZ of the defender. Which means no small corp can ever do a war. Because the defender just wins while they aren’t online. Congratulations, you just wrecks wars, you might as well delete them at that point. So no, CCP aren’t ever going to do something that dumb. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > Meaningless, because the defender in the main does not want the war and has no way to end it apart from hoping that the war decker gets bored and drops it. I literally just said the defender should be able to end the war by achieving a certain activity level in their activities. Expecting a PvE corp to magically turn into an ubber structure bashing PvP corp that is going to be in the attackers favour… Not going to happen. Expecting them to keep doing PvE they already do in return for getting rid of the wardec and getting some bonus isk on top of that as well… Now that can actually happen. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 9:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3503 "2018-10-21T09:10:00Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > And null alliances could go to wormhole to avoid these new jump bridges, don’t see that being a valid argument. I’m pretty sure there was a patch a long while ago to change wormhole traversal mass calculations to include modules that were offline, as one null security group was using this trick to avoid fatigue via travel in wormholes, so that isn’t exactly a new suggestion. Though the new jump bridges don’t have fatigue, so what to avoid other than the fact worm holes might let you go further than 5 LY for no ozone? ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 9:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3504 "2018-10-21T09:11:04Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Which means no small corp can ever do a war. Because the defender just wins while they aren’t online. Excuse me are you that dense, seriously, when the hell do you as a small war decker war dec someone not in your own TZ? Answer that, seriously… You are the one being dumb, if you are a small war decker playing in a time zone and war decking someone who is out side their own TZ then you are dumb. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > I literally just said the defender should be able to end the war by achieving a certain activity level in their activities. CCP can add that and see, I think it could help, but does it end the war dec. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Expecting a PvE corp to magically turn into an ubber structure bashing PvP corp that is going to be in the attackers favour… Not going to happen. Expecting them to keep doing PvE they already do in return for getting rid of the wardec and getting some bonus isk on top of that as well… Now that can actually happen. You ignored this part, up your forum game. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > My target is to take aim at that with actual PvP. And this could include their allies coming in to help them do that. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 9:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3505 "2018-10-21T09:13:23Z")
Players in your time zone causing you issues. Their structures are set outside your TZ You decked them to attack the players. Whoops, now they blow up your structure in their TZ. Answer given. Not all corps have a single TZ. Some are spread. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > You ignored this part, up your forum game. You mean the made up part where you assume that their allies include a PvP corp capable of equalling PIRAT on their home turf? Yes I ignored it because it was as imaginary as unicorns and pots of gold at the end of rainbows. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 9:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3506 "2018-10-21T09:16:17Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Players in your time zone causing you issues. > Their structures are set outside your TZ > You decked them to attack the players. > Whoops, now they blow up your structure in their TZ. > Answer given. Not all corps have a single TZ. Some are spread. Some, most are pretty focussed in terms of TZ because why be in a corp if most people are in a different TZ. And most corps in hisec are small so little chance of that. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > You mean the made up part where you assume that their allies include a PvP corp capable of equalling PIRAT on their home turf? Yes I ignored it because it was as imaginary as unicorns and pots of gold at the end of rainbows. And this is because you are being dumb, because I am going to be doing just that, and I intend to setup a group of players to do it. It is called emergent gameplay… ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 9:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3507 "2018-10-21T09:22:05Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > And this is because you are being dumb, because I am going to be doing just that, and I intend to setup a group of players to do it. It is called emergent gameplay… Yet you haven’t set said group up anytime in the last 10 years, and nor has anyone else. I therefore judge your chances of success in doing this to be pretty insignificant, and your claims on this to have as much meaning as prayers for flood victims. I’m sure you mean well and all, but reality does not support your dreams as likely. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2018, 9:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3508 "2018-10-21T09:24:40Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Which means no small corp can ever do a war. Because the defender just wins while they aren’t online. Time zone tanking structures is a problem that likely traverses all sectors of space. I remember reading about a campaign in the old POS days that was greatly aided by a large contingent of AU-TZ players reinforcing towers whilst their owners slumbered, who’d always wake to find the guns incapacitated and being forced to run repairs. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Congratulations, you just wrecks wars, you might as well delete them at that point. To say wars are wrecked in such a situation is a matter of perspective. Indeed, it would be unfortunate to create a class of ‘have’ and ‘have nots’ based purely around presence in a single time zone. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=172) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=174)