# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 178
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 12:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3589 "2018-10-24T12:32:53Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Dunno about that. He’s right. Before there were barges and exhumers, there were mining battleships. There’s no reason not to give the smaller industrials the PG and hardpoints for weapons, and leave the bigger ones with only 1 turret slot. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 12:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3590 "2018-10-24T12:35:18Z")
My battle nereus will eat most unprepared souls pretty easily 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 12:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3591 "2018-10-24T12:42:17Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > He’s right. Any armament a mining or hauling specialized ship would have will be inadequate to fight off and defeat even a token attack by dedicated PvP ships/fits. The notion of miners in a field and haulers enroute attacking each other is amusing, but where would that occur, and why bother when you can bring in a combat capable alt with approporiate ship/fit. Nor would the miners/haulers have scrams fitted to prevent the other just warping off. This is basic EVE 101. Even suggesting that miners and haulers should be able to PvP is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 12:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3592 "2018-10-24T12:47:14Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Any armament a mining or hauling specialized ship would have will be inadequate to fight off and defeat even a token attack by dedicated PvP ships/fits. It doesn’t have to win, it just needs to be able to provide enough of a delay for help to arrive, or to escape. If you can force them outside of scram range, you’ve got a much better chance of running away. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Nor would the miners/haulers have scrams fitted to prevent the other just warping off. Good! Let 'em warp off! The miner _just wants to mine_, remember? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 12:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3593 "2018-10-24T12:48:51Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > It doesn’t have to win, it just needs to be able to provide enough of a delay for help to arrive, or to escape Armaments in no way provide a delay. Tank does. This is astounding that I have to explain such simple things to a vet like you. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 12:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3594 "2018-10-24T12:51:47Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Armaments in no way provide a delay. > Tank does. Armaments _do_, in fact, provide a delay. If you can mount good close-range guns, you can keep them from coming in on you with their close-range guns. Most ganks use blasters or pulse lasers because they don’t need range. Tornado ganks are something completely different, and you’re not going to avoid those no matter what you do. And for the record, on the ‘miners with scrams’ issue… never seen a Skiff pilot kill an attacking bomber with his drones while scramming him, have you? It’s actually pretty easy. The little beasts have more than enough tank to spare a couple of mid-slots. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 12:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3595 "2018-10-24T12:55:26Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > If you can mount good close-range guns, you can keep them from coming in on you with their close-range guns. Drones already fulfill this function. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 12:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3596 "2018-10-24T12:58:16Z")
They _might_… If, you know, industrials other than Ventures, barges, exhumers, and the aforementioned Battle Nereus could _use_ them. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 12:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3597 "2018-10-24T12:58:54Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > They _might_… > > If, you know, industrials other than Ventures, barges, exhumers, and the aforementioned Battle Nereus could _use_ them. They can fit weapons in high slots too. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 12:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3598 "2018-10-24T12:59:20Z")
1 weapon. And they don’t have the PG to do that _and_ fit a tank and prop. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 1:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3599 "2018-10-24T13:00:14Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > 1 weapon. And they don’t have the PG to do that _and_ fit a tank and prop. Too bad, too sad. And a prop on an industrial? Why? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 1:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3600 "2018-10-24T13:01:15Z")
For the same reason Deep Space Transports get _bonuses_ to the benefits of overheating their prop mods? To run away? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 1:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3601 "2018-10-24T13:03:28Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > For the same reason Deep Space Transports get _bonuses_ to the benefits of overheating their prop mods? To run away? So you want a DS to have weapons to fight, a tank, and prop bonuses? What armament do you imagine them having? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 1:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3602 "2018-10-24T13:04:23Z")
DSTs and Blockade Runners are already in a pretty good space. We’re talking about things like the Wreathe, Badger, and Sigil. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 1:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3603 "2018-10-24T13:09:12Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > What armament do you imagine them having? Answer please. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 1:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3604 "2018-10-24T13:14:27Z")
Having not given the matter extensive thought, I’m not sure. Drones might be an option. Enough PG and the turret slots to mount 4 small long-range guns of their racial type might, as well. It doesn’t have to be a lot. 4 Small Focused Beam Laser IIs is 52 PG. The Sigil’s already got that (312.5MW PG) if it sacrifices a little tank. But it doesn’t have the turret slots. Bumping the PG up by enough to let it continue to have the tank it currently gets shouldn’t be an issue. Also on the subject of PG btw… consider this: The Caracal, a combat ship, has 787.5 PG. Its T2 version, the Cerberus, has 1,000 PG, an increase of about 50%. The Bestower, a T1 industrial, has 112.5 PG. The Impel, its T2 version, has 412.5 PG, an increase of about _300%_. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3605 "2018-10-24T13:29:12Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Enough PG and the turret slots to mount 4 small long-range guns of their racial type might, as well Long range weapons typically have higher PG than short range. Stabber/FI Stabber/Vagabond as a case in point. It cant fit arty. Earlier you said it should be short range weps to drive off scram ships. I think you confused the higher PG of long range weapons, with their inefficacy in short range, especially in turret weapon systems due to their lower tracking and rof. Increasing PG may lead to inadvertent abuse, in investing the extra PG into something other than weapons. And adding 4 high slots will completely brealk ship balance by slots. What benefit do you see to the game from mining/hauling ships having armaments? I have to say it, Im shocked Im having to go over this with you. A vet of yours years should know better than suggesting to arm mining/hauling vessels. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3606 "2018-10-24T13:46:24Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Long range weapons typically have higher PG than short range. And haulers are _medium_ hulls, not _small_. Medium short-range: Heavy Pulse Laser II - 208 PG Small long-range: Small Focused Beam Laser II - 13 PG. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Earlier you said it should be short range weps to drive off scram ships. Have you looked at the range on a small beam laser? Small Focused Beam Laser II: Optimal Range: 13.2km. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > What benefit do you see to the game from mining/hauling ships having armaments? Mining ships already _do_. A Skiff is about the most dangerous cruiser-sized hull you’ll encounter if you go hunting in Null. 223 DPS and 100k EHP tank _while_ still getting 18m3/s yield. With a point fitted. As for what benefit? It gives haulers who don’t have the skills for Blockade Runners and DSTs the chance to be a slightly harder target while running things around in highsec and lowsec. If the Indy pilot feels like he has even a small chance of not dying, he’s more likely to risk nipping through lowsec to make a cargo run. He’s more like to decide to find out how dangerous that space is. There is a significant benefit to the game in getting players acclimated to the increased risk of lowsec. Now, since you’ve asked questions, here’s one for you: Other than insisting that it _can’t_ be done—even though other than T1 haulers, it _already is_—what _detriment_ do you think there is to allowing T1 haulers to defend themselves? Frankly, I’m _not_ shocked you don’t seem to have a clue on this, but keep spouting off on things where you can be demonstrated to be wrong, easily. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3607 "2018-10-24T13:50:16Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Mining ships already _do_ . Then there is no need to add armaments. > [@Arrendis](#): > > It gives haulers who don’t have the skills for Blockade Runners and DSTs the chance to be a slightly harder target while running things around in highsec and lowsec. Earlier you wanted weapons on DSTs… A few small weapons wont save you from a suicide gank, and you can run haulers on NPC and soon to be Sofial Corps without wardecs. > [@Arrendis](#): > > There is a significant benefit to the game in getting players acclimated to the increased risk of lowsec. A few small weapons wont save you in LS. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Frankly, I’m _not_ shocked you don’t seem to have a clue on this, but keep spouting off on things where you can be demonstrated to be wrong, easily. You still dont get it. Mining and hauling ships are for mining and hauling, not for fighting. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 1:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3608 "2018-10-24T13:53:39Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Then there is no need to add armaments. Again: We’re talking about T1 **HAULERS**. > [@Arrendis](#): > > We’re talking about things like the Wreathe, Badger, and Sigil. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Earlier you wanted weapons on DSTs… > [@Arrendis](#): > > DSTs and Blockade Runners are already in a pretty good space. We’re talking about things like the Wreathe, Badger, and Sigil. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > A few small weapons wont save you in LS. They don’t have to. They just have to let the pilot feel like he _might_ be able to run away. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > You still dont get it. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Answer please. > [@Arrendis](#): > > what _detriment_ do you think there is to allowing T1 haulers to defend themselves? > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Mining and hauling ships are for mining and hauling, not for fighting. > **[Garmur | ThatGuyToxic Tox | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/73080610/)** > > ThatGuyToxic Tox (Naked Oiled Bodybuilders) lost their Garmur in VFK-IV (Deklein). Final Blow by Descrete Crystal (4.20ly Mining Range) flying in a Skiff. Total Value: 82,726,537.30 ISK [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=177) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=179)