# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 179
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 1:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3609 "2018-10-24T13:56:22Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Again: We’re talking about T1 **HAULERS**. T1 haulers are cheap as dirt. No amount of small armaments will save you from a suicide gank. You can fly them under NPC or upcoming Social Corps, without wardecs. If you have small volume, high value shipments, haul them on a tanked PvP ship designed to escape, or an inconspicuous ship that wont be noticed or scanned, and then aggressed. Ive run countless shipments of BPs and DED loot on a Dramiel. This is basic stuff that I usually have to explain only to noobs. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 2:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3610 "2018-10-24T14:12:26Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Answer please. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Other than insisting that it _can’t_ be done—even though other than T1 haulers, it _already is_ —what _detriment_ do you think there is to allowing T1 haulers to defend themselves? Not emptyposting. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 2:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3611 "2018-10-24T14:13:19Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > what _detriment_ do you think there is to allowing T1 haulers to defend themselves? There is no point. It wont save you against a suicide gank, and you can fly them under NPC or upcoming Social Corp without wardecs. A few small guns with no bonuses, especially on character without PvP related SP, wont do jack to save you even in LS. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 2:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3612 "2018-10-24T14:14:08Z")
That’s not a detriment. What _detriment_ do you see to it? Also: > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > upcoming Social Corps They won’t be ‘social corps’, they’ll be ‘Corps’. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 2:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3613 "2018-10-24T14:16:20Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > What _detriment_ do you see to it? I see no point to it, as explained above. Detriment would be wasted dev time on implementing something pointless. There is no way to buff a T1 hauler to destroy even a single PvP fit frigate scramming it without breaking the foundations of EVE. > [@Arrendis](#): > > They won’t be ‘social corps’, they’ll be ‘Corps’. Doesnt matter what they are called. What matters is what they are. Seriously, back in the day you would be slapped from every direction for even thinking that T1 haulers should be substantially armed. Be ashamed and dont do this again. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 2:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3614 "2018-10-24T14:26:25Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Seriously, back in the day you would be slapped from every direction for even thinking that T1 haulers should be substantially armed. If you think 4 SFBL IIs is ‘substantially armed’, I’m not the one who should be slapped here. You like to give me grief over ‘you’re a vet’ while doing this idiotic song and dance about ‘that’s not what those ships are _for_’, but you know, I’m vet enough to know that what things are ‘for’ in EVE is ‘whatever we can make them _do_’. Supercarriers aren’t ‘for’ tackling titans… but we did it. Wormholes weren’t ‘for’ living in, but we did it. _Options_ make EVE better. And if giving players the option to slap a handful of small guns onto the 4 T1 haulers that are already intended to be low-capacity, high-survivability ships is something you think is ‘wasted dev time’, when it would probably take Rise all of 10m to go ‘ok, so Sigil gets 50 PG, Wreathe and Badger get 40, Nereus has drones’ **if that long** … you’re nuts. The only real ‘dev time’ needed would be the art team finding spots for the turret hardpoints on the models. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3615 "2018-10-24T14:28:00Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > If you think 4 SFBL IIs is ‘substantially armed’ **WHY?** It wont matter jack squat against a suicide gank, and you can avoid wardecs in NPC Corp or post-December. Its completely pointless to arm T1 haulers. Think, man. Use your brain. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3616 "2018-10-24T14:38:44Z")
Because it gives people options. Because there are people who will want to be in corps that have structures, and are willing to risk PvP, but don’t want to be helpless _and still need to haul things around_. Because more options are good. And other than, again, the argument about wasting the time it takes Rise to look up the PG requirements of small turrets, you haven’t shown any _detriment_. You haven’t shown any reason _not_ to give people this option. Just like your nonsense arguments about social corps going into LS/NS/J-space, you haven’t provided _one actual reason_ to restrict people. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3617 "2018-10-24T14:39:47Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Because it gives people options. Its a pointless option. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > It wont matter jack squat against a suicide gank, and you can avoid wardecs in NPC Corp or post-December. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 2:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3618 "2018-10-24T14:40:33Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Its a pointless option. In your opinion. But then, we’ve already demonstrated only about a hundred times in this thread that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 2:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3619 "2018-10-24T14:43:04Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > In your opinion. Its not an opinion, its a fact. 4 small unbonused weapons wont save you in a suicide gank, or stop a ship capable of bumping you, or threaten a PvP fit frigate scramming you, much less a destroyer or cruiser. As to legal aggression, haul in NPC or upcoming Corp changes for no wardecs. What you are proposing is utterly pointless and ineffectual in every regard. ---
**Author:** ![Iowa\_Banshee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iowa_banshee/32/218394_2.png) [@Iowa\_Banshee](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iowa_Banshee)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3620 "2018-10-24T16:44:02Z")
This is a start with war decs - Lets hope they do something to balance the ratio of players involved (It’s still not going to help a 10 member corp being wardec’d by a 500 member corp) and ban/concord the “I have hidden neutral logistics so I’ll win” thing. - I still think making the wars actually structure based would be better: ie. Warring parties can only fight on grid with an owned structure, add in hi-sec bubbles that can be anchored on grid with a structure and stop at war ships only. Then revamp the bounty system with consumable Lp store bounty licenses that give free reign on targets within a bounty value range. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3621 "2018-10-24T16:48:28Z")
For CCP ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/9/e/9e7b225a423547f168f6cce696c8c1e078ccc791.jpeg) From “The Psychology of Security” by Bruce Schneier ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3622 "2018-10-24T16:57:10Z")
4 unbonused Small Focused Beam Laser IIs with Imperial Navy Multifreq and 1 Heat Sink: 170.4 dps Tank of that PvP Garmur I linked you: 14.8 ehp/s, 4.72k total EHP vs Imp Navy Multifreq, big EM hole in the shields. Time to kill that Garmur, solo: 28s. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3623 "2018-10-24T17:07:19Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > 4 unbonused Small Focused Beam Laser IIs with Imperial Navy Multifreq and 1 Heat Sink: 170.4 dps > Tank of that PvP Garmur I linked you: 14.8 ehp/s, 4.72k total EHP vs Imp Navy Multifreq, big EM hole in the shields. > > Time to kill that Garmur, solo: 28s. The naivety of the above is astounding. No PvP fit ship aggressing a T1 hauler will have a resist hole, and you are completely ignoring actual application of dps, as compared to paper dps. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3624 "2018-10-24T17:08:39Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > No PvP fit ship aggressing a T1 hauler will have a resist hole Unlike the Garmur that I’m talking about, which _died attacking a group of miners_? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3625 "2018-10-24T17:09:43Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > > > No PvP fit ship aggressing a **T1 hauler** will have a resist hole > > Unlike the Garmur that I’m talking about, which _died attacking a group of miners_? Read again. I bolded the important part. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3626 "2018-10-24T17:12:16Z")
Right, because PvP pilots are much _more_ likely to make sure they patch their resist holes when attacking a single T1 hauler than when attacking a group of T2 miners _with command bursts_. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3627 "2018-10-24T17:15:09Z")
You just dont know when to give up, do you. Read this again: > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > It wont save you against a suicide gank, and you can fly them under NPC or upcoming Social Corp without wardecs. > > A few small guns with no bonuses, especially on character without PvP related SP, wont do jack to save you even in LS. The change you propose is pointless, utterly. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3628 "2018-10-24T17:16:29Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > No PvP fit ship aggressing a T1 hauler will have a resist hole My dear boy, it’s pretty apparent you don’t pvp if you think everyone is omnitanking their pvp ships 😂 [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=178) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=180)